Hi Terry

I use the preview render regularly for difficult sections, eg collages, however you cannot use it for editing, as soon as you make a change eg cut a section, move an object etc, the render becomes useless.

As the name suggests it is for getting a smooth preview which is very useful.

To answer your questions:

. . . . Q1: Rendering does not seem to be faster than an export. Should it be? . . . .

No, it is the same process mixing everything down to one video file with sound, mxv if I am not mistaken, and plays this in the preview window until you make another edit within the preview range, then it reverts to rendering that section of the timeline in real time again until you re-render the range. You can see this happen - the rendered section marker bar turns from green to red

. . . . Q2: Using the Auto option, MEP invariably reassures me that I don't need to render! Do others get similar over optimistic behaviour? (I resort to the Range option instead.) . . . .

It is optimistic, particularly if you have collages and PIP, which it either ignores or severally under estimates, some effects do not appear to be taken into account either eg Mercalli stabilisation, New Blue Effects.

Like you I set a range and then render it for preview.

HTH

John EB

Thanks John.

Actually I was able to cut and trim the rendered version of my AVI files satisfactorily. But I don't really see any advantage over the more direct method of exporting/reimporting?

Hi Terry

One type of large AVI file I use frequently is FRAPS output from Google Earth.

I presume you have fraps installed on your computer...or are you just downloading a fraps file? You need fraps or ffdshow installed to play the file correctly and this may make it play properly in MEP.

Fraps is compressed albeit lightly so it should play smoothly as long as MEP can access the codec, unless you have some bottleneck with your disc system due to the file's high data rate. I have no experience with Fraps however.

I find preview rendering of limited use for reasons John EB has stated but it can be useful for a quick one off review of a range. The default renders to mxv but you can choose to let it create HD or DVD quality "All I Frame" (even bigger files than MXV) that you can choose to use in your final export with the idea, I guess, that this will render quicker than a more compressed codec and save some time. The preference for this is set in "File>Settings>Proxy and preview rendering" Alt+R and the files are created in Documents>MagixProjects>MEPXXXX>PerfBounce. It pays to clean out this folder when you have finished your project as the files take up a lot of space.

Peter

Thanks Peter. I've been using FRAPS for many years and this problem with previewing the files in MEP seems to have become serious only on my new PC. I suspect some mistake in my configuration and will check it out more thoroughly, including your siuggestions.

Hi Terry

Have you tried Screencast-O-Matic ?

I use the Pro version, exports MP4 and the licence fee is very reasonable.

HTH

John EB

John, Peter,

I'm clearly missing something as I don't understand the point you've both made about the render becoming useless after any subsequent editing.

As an experiment I created a range over part of a FRAPS AVI and used preview rendering on it. As expected, it then played smothly. I then edited that by removing a section in the middle (and closing the gap). The timeline now looks like this, and still plays smoothly, again as I'd expect.

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Hi Terry

That's interesting. It may be that shortening the file still puts it within the rendered section in red so it still uses part of the rendered file. What happens if: 1) you move one section outside the red zone, 2) you put another clip between the 2 but keep the last 2 within the red sector?

this problem with previewing the files in MEP seems to have become serious only on my new PC.

Maybe your new machine is missing a codec as I suggested.

Peter

Hi Terry

As Peter says - 'interesting'.

I had to revert back to MEP 2014 to demonstrate what I mean with a complicated section of a project, MEP Premium plays this collage as smooth as silk with no pre-render.

Note: although it appears as though 2 objects have been removed - the 'missing' object is not showing because the mask for the removed object is still in place.

As Peter has suggested 'Maybe your new machine is missing a codec' what does MediaInfo say the actual codec in the AVI file is?

HTH

John EB

Hi Terry

That's interesting. It may be that shortening the file still puts it within the rendered section in red so it still uses part of the rendered file. What happens if: 1) you move one section outside the red zone, 2) you put another clip between the 2 but keep the last 2 within the red sector?

this problem with previewing the files in MEP seems to have become serious only on my new PC.

Maybe your new machine is missing a codec as I suggested.

Peter

Hi Terry

That's interesting. It may be that shortening the file still puts it within the rendered section in red so it still uses part of the rendered file. What happens if: 1) you move one section outside the red zone

If I move clip B to the right, outside the red zone, that is again jerky.

2) you put another clip between the 2 but keep the last 2 within the red sector?

Then all three play smoothly.

One important factor we haven't discussed: repetition. Here, that makes successive
improvements. By the 3rd or 4th playback, all of the half dozen FRAPS AVIs played smoothly.
Presumably some sort of caching is the reason?

this problem with previewing the files in MEP seems to have become serious only on my new PC.

Maybe your new machine is missing a codec as I suggested.

Possibly, although finding which one wouldn't be easy! I did have ffdshow installed on my XP PC, but I've never understood its obscure UI or exactly how it works so not keen on re-installing it.

Other info:

1. FRAPS AVIs from 2008 or so play smoothly (without repetition). That seems to imply it's the recording step that's behind this issue.

2. FRAPS hasn't been updated since 2013 still at version 3.5.99. About a year ago the author said he was working on 3.6, mainly to deal with a Win 10 problem (not able to record the 'desktop', tiles, etc, properly) - not my issue.

3. Tried installing four alternatives, including Screencast-O-Matic suggested by John, but wasn't truly comfortable with any of them. Undoubtedly the familiarity of my decade or so of FRAPS is a factor. Duly uninstalled them.

4. The AVIs play smoothly in other players, like VLS, MPC-HC, WMP. (BTW, just noticed I haven't re-installed VirtualDub on this Win 10 PC in the 14 months since buying it! That used to be my 'associated application' for AVI. I'm sure they would play smoothly in that too.)

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Peter

Hi

@ Terry

Virtual Dub has not been updated for 4 years and looks like it won't be, the forum was closed in 2015.

If you use GSpot to analyse an AVI file and tell it to render the file, the program will tell you whether the codec(s) are installed as shown at 1 below

If the codecs are installed click button 1 under MS A/V will try to render the video.

MediaInfo will tell you what the codecs are - in the example above it is the Indeo 4 codec which is not installed.

HTH

John EB

Hi John,

There's nothing wrong on the codec aspect.

Before I saw your post I was putting together an example of a very brief AVI, with the intention of uploading it (168 MB) . Here are reports on it from MediaInfo (with which I check any troublesome video files as a matter of course) and GSpot (which I only resort to in rare cases). I've also shown the FRAPS settings for good measure.

But as for the upload, there's now no point; it played smoothly in MEP! A few others I've tried so far also seem better (less jerky) than before. Apart from a Win 10 reset, I can't think of a reason for the change. It seems erratic.

BTW, my MEP projects are set to 50 fps (same as FRAPS). My MOV movies from the iPhone are 29.97 fps, variable; and reported by MEP as 30 fps. (That's in its 'Adjust?' message, to which I always answer No.) Question: Is it normal for these widely varying frame rates to co-exist without problems?

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Hi Terry

. . . . Is it normal for these widely varying frame rates to co-exist without problems? . . . .

From my experience - yes and no - to clarify:

• mixing two different frame rates is OK providing they are an exact multiple eg 25 + 50 or 30 + 60 fps
   
• mixing different frame rates can lead to pull-down issues and depends greatly on the frame rate differences, the issue being made worse if one is progressive and the other interleaved.

The latter is two of the three reasons why I replaced my first sports cam, a Contour 1080 HD (version 1), which was 30fps progressive only, with the Sony which is set to 25 fps interleaved to match my XR520EV

The third reason was the Sony sportscam has the same sensor as my Sony XR520EV so colour matching is not a problem.

Can you upload a small FRAPS file for me to play with please.

HTH

John EB

Hi Terry

One important factor we haven't discussed: repetition. Here, that makes successive
improvements. By the 3rd or 4th playback, all of the half dozen FRAPS AVIs played smoothly.
Presumably some sort of caching is the reason?

Yes, this is a factor, probably even more so with the very high data rate (440Mbits/sec) of your fraps file.

The Magix support FAQ on smooth playback suggests it:

"When you the first play the video, the software creates temporary data to make future playback smoother. When you first start the software up, play the project or scene you want to edit through once to create this temporary data."

Hi John,

Hi Terry

. . . . Is it normal for these widely varying frame rates to co-exist without problems? . . . .

From my experience - yes and no - to clarify:

• mixing two different frame rates is OK providing they are an exact multiple eg 25 + 50 or 30 + 60 fps

Yet my mix, 29.97 (30) and 50 are not mutiples, but seem OK.

• mixing different frame rates can lead to pull-down issues and depends greatly on the frame rate differences, the issue being made worse if one is progressive and the other interleaved.

Despite reading a little about 'pull-down', such as here
http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html
that and 'progressive v interleaved' are topics I 'd like to avoid having to master!

The latter is two of the three reasons why I replaced my first sports cam, a Contour 1080 HD (version 1), which was 30fps progressive only, with the Sony which is set to 25 fps interleaved to match my XR520EV

The third reason was the Sony sportscam has the same sensor as my Sony XR520EV so colour matching is not a problem.

Can you upload a small FRAPS file for me to play with please.

Here's the one featured in my screenshots (168 MB, 3 seconds.)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d16puib4x4zn1up/FRAPS-Example-168MB.avi?dl=0

With MEP 2016 Premium newly opened this morning and this video the only object on the timeline (no preview rendering enabled), the 4th playback was the first to be smooth. The project settings are 'PAL FullHD 50p 16:9 (1920x1080; 50fps)'.

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Hi Peter,

"When you first start the software up, play the project or scene you want to edit through once to create this temporary data"

Thanks. I rarely find once is enough to get smooth playback of files like those FRAPS videos under discussion.

It would be interesting to know how my uploaded example behaves for others in the same circumstances (in MEP 2016 P or MEPP).

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Hi Terry

Thanks for the FRAPS clip.

I have had a play with this and find if I convert the AVI to MP4 (h.264) with MovAvi it plays smoothly in MEP 2016 first time (no proxy).

A copy of the mp4 is here.

One question - is the vertical pan jerky on your PC?

HTH

John EB

Hi John,

Thanks, yes, that's always an option, although naturally an unwanted extra step.

What was the behaviour of the AVI in a new project?

"One question - is the vertical pan jerky on your PC?"

Not sure I get the connection with the video? Do you mean, is the result smooth if I apply vertical panning to, say, a still image? If so, yes.

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Another alternative to FRAPS is the one built-in to Win 10. As I'm not a game player I've only just discovered it.

With Google Earth open, and ready to play a tour, or ready for me to manually pan/zoom/tilt/rotate, I press Win+Alt+r to start or stop the recording. And the resulting MP4 is in Your video folder\Captures

The first movie I made played smoothly in MEP immediately. (It was of the entire screen so a little cropping was subsequently needed.) Here's the original captured MP4.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sj93evr7p71lc58/Day4-ToCathedral.mp4?dl=0

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Hi Terry

. . . . Do you mean, is the result smooth if I apply vertical panning to, say, a still image? . . .

I meant as the scene pans down - it is not smooth. The Windows capture video is much smoother than the FRAPS.

John EB

Hi John,

OK, understood. That was due to my rather rushed manual panning! I used my 3D Connexion Space Navigator for that particular shot. And for the one captured with the Windows 10 Game Bar - but I must have been more fluid with that! BTW, what do you think of their respective quality?

Hi Terry

. . . . what do you think of their respective quality . . . .

I think the Windows 10 Game bar video is better quality wise.

Long ago I had a love it, hate it, relationship with FRAPS, it was, IMO, the best free software around for screen capture and was only beaten into 2nd place by Camtasia which was expensive.

Over the years, since the release of Windows 8, IMO, better programs for screen capturing, and at modest prices have come along.

HTH

John EB

Hi Terry

Played your Fraps clip and Media Player would play it on my old 32bit Vista PC but MEP2014 would not, and came up with a window saying I needed to install the Fraps codec. I guess it is because I have ffdshow installed that WMP played it, but MEP did not like that flavour.

It would not play on my new PC in either MEP (same message about codec) or WMP and I do not want to install any more codecs than I need on my "Clean Machine".

Re your question about mixed frame rates - that is the beauty of Non Linear Editing - I think it is called an "Open Timeline" in which you can mix, FPS, resolution and codecs and formats.