Thanks John,

I was looking at VPX, unfortunately my budget is a little tight these days, so I just upgraded my Premium package (2020).

That Neat Video plugin looks like a winner. I'll look further into that - I assume it works with MEP? I have several other VHS tapes I would like to convert, so it looks like a worthwhile investment (if my PC can handle it). Not too worried about the render time if it gets me good results.

My folks were on that same trip with my brother. My father (like myself) had been shooting slides for years, and I found two reels of slides from this trip. Fortunately, I found a stand-alone scanner a few years ago that allows me to scan slides (4 at a time lol). His slides were all color faded, and dirty - so part of this project has been a very intensive job of scanning, cleaning, and correcting in my photo editor (I use Paintshop Pro) - so I have a LOT of still images to fill my 16:9 format along with/alongside the video. I'm also making use of the "Insert a still image.." function for additional content. Big project, but here in Florida we are pretty much quarantined, so I have plenty of time on my hands lol.

Thanks again - you gave me some good ideas.

Harry Drechsel

@hdrechsel18

OK, I will immediately "declare an interest" in this thread, since I do this sort of work "professionally", i.e. clients pay me to transfer VHS (and other types of analogue and digital footage) to DVD.

To me, the most "critical" part of this process is the initial digitisation of the analogue output from the VHS tape. Using a VHS to DVD recorder is, in my admittedly limited experience of such units, most definitely NOT a good start! (I have received, from clients, DVDs produced by machines like this and always, without fail, there is some problem, e.g. discontinuity, picture distortion, picture noise etc., etc., which then require quite "surgical" correction and editing.) These machines, again in my experience, allow NO user control of the quality of the image as burned to disc; they can work well I suppose, they can also work very badly!

@browj2 mentioned the use of a USB Capture device. He asks whether such a unit will produce better files; unfortunately, I rather suspect not! I have previously briefly tried using one of these, the quality of the digitised footage was very low and the picture resolution very similar to the figures you are quoting. As soon as you make any attempt to use that resolution to create a DVD, you are going to notice a very poor output quality on the final DVD. Just to add slightly to your woes: you are using .VOB files from the recorder-created DVDs, so MPEG-2 format files, which you are then "editing" to some greater or lesser extent, to then re-encode as MPEG-2 files for the final DVD. Each "encode" process is bound to further reduce the final quality!

My suggestion: since this is quite a "big job", especially since you are reducing six hours of footage down to 1 hour, seriously consider whether it would be worth you investing in something like one of the Canopus (Grass Valley) range of hardware analogue to digital video convertors. This will allow you to convert the analogue footage from the VHS player direct to a format like DV-AVI, which MEP can and does directly handle very well. It is a far superior quality to the .VOB files you are presently using (1 hour of .VOB files occupies up to a maximum of about 3GB of disc space, 1 hour of DV-AVI is about 13GB, so much more "detail" and hence, quality.)

John also mentions NeatVideo; I would heartily and fully endorse everything he says about this rather remarkable plug in, especially for "cleaning up" video that has been digitised, as you are doing. The only other "regular technique" I use with such work is some degree of "Sharpening" of the footage on the MEP or VPX timeline. Analogue footage is almost always pretty "soft" and the careful use of Sharpening can considerably improve this.

(Just in case you're interested, I use a Canopus ACEDVio card in my computer, so a PCI version of the sort of technology I was suggesting you consider using. Unfortunately, I don't believe they are manufactured any longer; even those Canopus hardware units are becoming increasingly rare, and expensive!)

Sorry for such a long post but this is a very complex and complicated area of video work.

HTH

Jeff
Forum Moderator

@hdrechsel18

Hi Harry,

I also use PaintShop Pro with Athentech Perfectly Clear (doesn't always do a better job than PSP) for cleaning up photos and slides.

There is also Neat Image (free version) that I have used a few times to help clean up those old slides and scans from negatives. Download the demo plugin for PhotoShop; it works with PaintShop Pro. It seems that the demo is free and keeps working as long as it's not for commercial purposes.

Neat Video works with MEP. Get the trial version. You would likely only need the Home version, not Pro.

When I use Neat Video a lot in a project, I do a rough cut, Stabilization, Neat Video, export to Magix mxv format and use that for further editing. Otherwise you might find that it bogs down terribly when doing colour correction, fine editing, etc.

If you have some of the New Blue plugins from past versions of MEP Premium, you may have ColorFast or ColorFast 2. This is great for colour correction and it has the measuring instruments.

Have fun,

John CB

Wow...Thanks Jeff for the info on the .VOB files - wasn't really sure what they were, but now I see that they are probably what an MP3 is to a .WAV file. And yes, unfortunately the Magnavox offers no control over the quality. As mentioned, I'm on a tight budget, so I don't think upgrading to a professional level is in the stars for my "hobby" level (ya never know though...maybe that second "stimulus" is on it's way lol). But you have pointed me in a number of directions for a better understanding of what I'm doing and working with.

John CB - yes, I'm pretty happy with Paintshop (I call it the poor man's Photoshop lol), and I have Perfectly Clear along with a number of Topaz plugins, so I've gotten pretty good at polishing turds lol. I also have all the New Blue plugins that came with my MEP upgrade - some I'll have to get familiar with. Thanks for the tip on your working method. I usually don't export to mxv, but now you have me thinking.

Thanks all...this forum is always helpful.

@hdrechsel18 @emmrecs

seriously consider whether it would be worth you investing in something like one of the Canopus (Grass Valley) range of hardware analogue to digital video convertors. This will allow you to convert the analogue footage from the VHS player direct to a format like DV-AVI, which MEP can and does directly handle very well.

I would entirely agree with Jeff on converting to DV-AVI with an external analog to digital converter then editing in the DV-AVI format. I have always used a Sony Mini DV camera as a pass through from the VHS recorder plugged into the AV - In (yellow) Minijack that most of these cameras have - then connected via a firewire cable from the DV - Out to the PC. These old cameras could be picked up for a song but you would need to have a Firewire input on your PC which is not so common these days, but a Firewire PCI card can also be picked up very cheaply.

.....a format like DV-AVI, which MEP can and does directly handle very well. It is a far superior quality to the .VOB files you are presently using (1 hour of .VOB files occupies up to a maximum of about 3GB of disc space, 1 hour of DV-AVI is about 13GB, so much more "detail" and hence, quality.)

"Detail" - I see you use that expression loosely Jeff........The Resolution is the same between DV-AVI and Mpeg2 but it is the amount and type of compression that makes the difference. DV uses Intraframe compression at a data rate more typical for Full HD 50fps Mpeg4. It needs this because unlike MPEG Interframe compression each frame is not related to following or preceding frames and contains only information contained in that frame, lowly compressed with the equivalent of JPEG compression. Putting it simply, by doing this there is not the macro block compression noise created when using DV-AVI compression, whereas the MPEG2 encoder "trips up" during compression,on the "noise" inherent in analogue VHS video and creates a less than ideal master.

DV-AVI conversion then capture, gives you a chance to clean up the already truer images in MEP, including using Virtual Dub filter plug-ins designed for cleaning up VHS (there is even Neat Video for Virtual Dub version that can be used in MEP), giving the MPEG2 DVD encoder a chance to do a much better job.

Peter

Hi all,

I use a VCR plugged into a USB convertor (Roxio) to the computer and import to file (and timeline) using VPX. Unfortunately, the VCR does not have an S-Video output. I was sure that I had another VCR somewhere with S-Video. It works well.

My old DV cameras gave up on me long ago. I would never have thought of running the VCR to the camera to the firewire.

I am just about to re-import a half dozen Video cassettes. I lost the files after a disk drive died before backing up the files. My fault. Now, in which box and closet is that other VCR, or was I dreaming.

John CB

@browj2

Hi John.

If you are sure the drive is effectively dead and unusable you can try one trick once. Grab the drive and give in one reasonably hard thump on a solid surface bottom end down. (sockets facing up away from the surface) Carefully unscrew the top plate and see if the read / write head is on the platter. If it is, carefully place it back to the rest position using a cocktail stick or similar (non metallic) being careful not to bend the arm or touch the platter. Put the cover back on and reinstall. If it works, transfer as much of the data as quick and soon as possible. There will be missing data where the head stuck if that was the reason for the failure but you may get most of it back before it fails again. Make sure you do it where there is little dust about. It may save you a lot of work.

This will only work if the head stuck to the platter and was the cause of the failure.

Ray.

@browj2

Hi John

Unfortunately, the VCR does not have an S-Video output. I was sure that I had another VCR somewhere with S-Video. It works well.

Does it? I am a bit surprised you would get any benefit unless the tape was recorded as Super VHS.

My old DV cameras gave up on me long ago.

The AV to DV pass through may still work if the camera only has a sensor or tape transport problem.

Peter

@Scenestealer

Hi Peter,

I see my sentence got a bit out of order. It's the VCR without S-Video that works well. The other, which I think I found, has S-Video, but I don't know if it works well, if at all. I can see the back of it but it's buried under a bunch of stuff (wife's) and I'll try to dig it out.

True, the cassettes that I have to re-record most likely were not recorded with S-Video. I think that I still have the files from the ones that came from a TV station (wife and her band performing over a few years). However, I didn't digitize those using S-Video.

I'll give the old DV camera a try. However, what is the advantage of that over capturing using the USB convertor directly to the computer?

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

Thumping a HD is definitely not a good idea. I went through the learning process of trying to recover data, starting with opening the drive and checking to see if the heads were stuck, damaged, broken, grooves on the disk, etc. None of that. I used a program called EaseUS and was able to recover most of one folder of photos with the free version, then I purchased it. After that, I was able to recover 1 photo, that's all. It turned out to be an expensive proposition for 1 photo as the program is a subscription or something like that. It took about 2 days for the drive to be scanned before supposedly being able to recover files. I went through this process several times over a couple of months as I needed to use my computer and also turn it off (probably also had a power failure). At least I was able to see the file structure and files, screen captured that where I was missing a backup, and could use that to see what I needed to do. There was only 1 folder of audio recordings from old tapes that I really needed (threw out the cassettes after recording them). Everything else can be recovered or redone. Seeing what was there allowed me to search my drives to see if there was a copy somewhere else, in a backup or elsewhere. Surprisingly, I found a lot. But, lesson learned. Make sure that the backups are actually working and done.

Re-importing Video cassettes is not a problem as I still have them and had only done and completed 1 project with 1 cassette. One annoyance was losing the files of recently scanned photos for a few trips to Thailand - I threw out the photos after scanning, but not all (I found another copy in an album). However, I have the negatives of the missing photos and just scanned them. I normally scan to my main drive which is constantly backed up and then copy to the other drive. In this particular case, I scanned directly to the drive that failed.

So, warning for Harry, back up everything that you do.

John CB

@hdrechsel18 @emmrecs @browj2 @Scenestealer @CubeAce

Go the USB stick. Everything I have read says DV is inferior. For example, it's an old thread but read this on Videohelp:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/360708-Looking-to-get-a-capture-card/page1

Also, if you peruse DigitalFAQ, you'll get the same vibe.

The next trick is which one? Currently, the only one, new, for sale, appears to be the Diamond VC500.

From what I have read, the only other recommended "card" (the USB sticks are also called "cards") is the ATI 600 USB.

I have a August VGB-100 and am very happy with it's output to Lagarith Lossless via Virtual Dub, but I have just ordered an ATI 600 so will be able to compare.

These sticks are used only to capture lossless video (~40gb per hour) from your VHS with Virtual Dub or similar (easy process; don't be put off by Virtual Dub). You don't use the bundled DVD-making software. Then it is tidied up and edited. Tidy-up can be in Virtual Dub with it's extensive array of filters (no, I'm not into Avisynth! ) and/or MEP. NEAT Video has been mentioned; it is brilliant but you need two licences: one for Virtual Dub and another for MEP.

including using Virtual Dub filter plug-ins designed for cleaning up VHS (there is even Neat Video for Virtual Dub version that can be used in MEP)

Unfortunately, MEP, now being 64-bit, will no longer accept the hundreds of great Virtual Dub 32-bit filters. There seems to be very few 64-bit filters around which MEP can use. This is a great pity because it forces us to initially work in Virtual Dub to use the, for example, excellent Flaxen VHS filter.

I will also say this: you'll get much-improved results with a TBC (Time Based Corrector) between your VCR and the capture stick. The dedicated ones are very expensive, but some DVD Recorders (Panasonic ES-10 and ES-15, for example) have a passthrough feature where they act as a line TBC. I bought a second-hand one and the difference it makes is significant; steadier and higher quality picture. They are highly recommended (see DigitalFAQ) as cheap TBCs (Lordsmurf calls them "TBC-ish"). in fact, over at DigitalFAQ, you'll be derided if you don't use at least one of the ESs! 🙂

From what I have read, even if your VHS tape was not recorded in SVHS, you're better off, quality-wise, using an S-VHS machine to output an SVHS signal to your capture device.

I'll give the old DV camera a try. However, what is the advantage of that over capturing using the USB convertor directly to the computer?

I have also read that some old Sony DV cameras have a rudimentary TBC in them, so it may help with picture quality for capture.

PS: Yes, I have used DV for capture (a few years ago, or was it a couple of decades when MEP first came out?). I (still) have my Canopus ADVC-100. But I have redone all my tapes because the picture's better that I am now using Virtual Dub and Lossless AVI format (couldn't do that back then because hard drives weren't big enough).

@browj2

Hi John.

I did say if the drive was definitely dead 😉.

Sometimes it's not just the stuck head but other problems and is a last resort as professional recovery is expensive and still not guaranteed.

I always have more than one backup and one off site for really important stuff at my son's home. I keep an off site drive for him as well. I hope you store your video cassettes tail out. Before I digitised my audio recordings I baked the tapes but you have to be really careful and mine were on metal spools. I haven't had to digitise video tapes but I assume flaking oxides and print through is still a problem with ageing video tape. Thank that the price of storage on average is still going down over the years.

Good luck.

Ray.

Thanks everyone - this string has been very educational for me. I picked up a number of good tips, and I think I'm a little too far into my current project to make any radical changes, but I have many more similar projects on my "to do" list that will benefit from what I learned here.

One last question if I may: I have decided to purchase Neat Video, as I know it will help me in future projects. Not being a PC/Software wizard...how easy will it be for MEP to see Neat Video as a plugin? Is it self-explanatory with the download?

Thanks again. Harry Drechsel

@hdrechsel18

Make sure you purchase the version specifically for Magix products and the install will "know" exactly where to put all the necessary files (including at least one in the Magic .vfx folder). Then, when you next open MEP or VPX it will be listed on your Effects tab.

HTH

Jeff

@browj2 @hdrechsel18 @CubeAce

Hi John

I'll give the old DV camera a try. However, what is the advantage of that over capturing using the USB convertor directly to the computer?

It gives you a cheap easy way of capturing to a lowly compressed non MPEG format with a manageable file size, that you cannot capture to in MEP with a stick converter. However the MXV format is probably quite similar in this respect although I can find no information on the type of compression that is used in .mxv. It is probably no coincidence that the choices that MEP makes available are DV-AVI or MXV in the capture window as they both fit the bill for the reasons that I gave earlier, as an Intermediate codec that will remain truer during video cleaning and re-export.

@AAProds

Hi Al

Everything I have read says DV is inferior.

I read that whole thread but I could see why it is so inferior, but for sure nothing would beat Uncompressed or Lossless Lagarith if you could stick the enormous amounts of storage it would chew up to capture 3x 2hour tapes.

Unfortunately, MEP, now being 64-bit, will no longer accept the hundreds of great Virtual Dub 32-bit filters. There seems to be very few 64-bit filters around which MEP can use. This is a great pity because it forces us to initially work in Virtual Dub to use the, for example, excellent Flaxen VHS filter.

You could install a 32 bit version of MEP2014 - as this installs in the X86 Program files and appears to run great on a modern i7 64bit Win10 system. If you install a 32bit version of Virtual dub as well, all the old filters are available including Flaxen et al!

Peter

@Scenestealer

Hi Peter,

I started re-recording the VHS tapes the other day using the Roxio stick. I could not get MEP or VPX or anything else to properly read through the interface. They gave me an error. So, I used my laptop - no problem. I imported to mxv DVD format (720x480. The results once again were very good.

Anyone want to watch 2 hours of a couple of Big Truck Parades? No, I didn't film them.

@AAProds

I think that most of the Virtual Dub effects and filters have been taken care of by third party plugins or upgrades to MEP/VPX. Having the full version of Neat Video, there is no reason to use the Virtual Dub version.

The Virtual Dub Gradation Curves comes in a 64 bit version. See my thread on plugins.

John CB

I'm not familiar with Virtual Dub - but I see it's been mentioned a number of times in this thread. I sometimes use other programs like Roxio and Corel Video Studio as outboard processors because they each have certain things I like. With Corel, I use the Boris Graffiti plugin because I like it's filter set. Any benefit to Virtual Dub over Boris, or just a different set of filters?

Thanks, Harry D.

@browj2 @hdrechsel18

I do not know anything about the filters in the other programs you mention but the reason for going to VDub is for the filters that have been specifically designed to deal with the noise and "distortions" that are peculiar to VHS video signals. Modern programs including MEP / VPX would not normally contain these filters.

I saw an interesting one via the link you pasted in your excellent Plugins thread - http://www.infognition.com/super_resolution_vdf/ that intelligently up-scaled to higher resolutions by using information from previous frames to provide more detail. 'Twould be interesting to try this on some captured VHS footage via Vdub and MEP.

Peter

nothing would beat Uncompressed or Lossless Lagarith if you could stick the enormous amounts of storage it would chew up to capture 3x 2hour tapes.

@Scenestealer Gday Peter, Lagarith Lossless is 30gb her hour, so not a tall ask, storage-wise, these days. 90gb for a 3 hour tape. Another advantage with a codec such as Lagarith is that it is truly lossless, and that it is pretty universal for long-term storage and read by other programs, whereas one would be going out on a limb storing in MXV. Even if you don't intend to keep it, capturing lossless is better than DV-AVI or MXV with VHS, every bit helps, even if you do nothing with it in Virtual Dub. Another advantage is that you can chop it up, with no quality loss, (Smart copy! Oh where did that go, Magix) in VDub into smaller portions for different projects.

@browj2 Thanks John, I'll look at graduation curves filter.

@Scenestealer@Scenestealer

Hi Peter, John

I tried the Infognition plugin in Virtual Dub, along with several video cleaning filters, a couple of years ago and the results were very variable.

At best it works with scenes of high contrast, high detail, at worst it has tendency to oversharpen, increase noise and make the video look cartoony.

John EB

@johnebaker @Scenestealer @browj2

Hi John, John and Peter

The Infognition app is now free as a SAL at least. But I agree with John EB, the results are "variable".

Jeff

@Alwyn

Hi Al

30GB / Hr........you said 40GB / Hr before.........sounds like it's very lossy! Haw haw.

I guess that's manageable.

Smart copy! Oh where did that go, Magix

It is still there, but I think it only ever worked with MPEG4.

@emmrecs @johnebaker@johnebaker

Thanks for the heads up on Infognition. Sounded too good to be true, but I suppose you saw the notes about only doing it in steps of 200%?

Actually modern TV's do quite a good job of scaling and armed with that thought I played around a while ago where I played the VHS VCR through a 32" HD LCD TV and filmed it with an HD camcorder.The AGC in the camera helped smooth out exposure variations also. Came out pretty good except that I ended up with a red spot in the middle of the screen from the infrared Auto focus......😆!

Peter