Terry,

No reproduction here.

I just did four KFs for size, set at 100, 200, 100 & 200. I selected them all using [Ctrl]+click for each in turn. Finally I set the window value to 50 and hit [Enter] -- not [Tab] -- and all KFs changed to 50.

Repeated the setup exactly, but using [Tab] after typing in 50 changed only the KF that I was on even though the other three were, according to their blue color, selected.

No spurious added kfs so far!

Then did the following: Same exact setup but moved the play cursor a single step before changing the typed in new value. That created a new KF=50 but left the others (still supposedly selected) at the original 100, 200, 100 & 200. I do wonder if your macro program is the source of some of your unusual results?

ADDED: Seeing John's contribution arrive as I typed... I [Ctrl]+click selected in a different order, left the cursor on different KFs, no change in my results -- all change to the new value if I used [Enter], and only the KF I was on changed if I used [Tab]! Further, checking in MEP 2013, my settings still need [Enter], or clicking outside the 'Size/Position' pane of the effects window, for changes to appear in the preview window.

All this altering only Size > Width.

Regards,

Carl

Hi

Seeing Carls method used the Ctrl + clck - I was using Shift + click - so there is obviously a difference depending on whether Shift or Ctrl is used.

This should not be so!!!

John

Thanks both, this is getting interesting.

Carl,

I tried to reproduce your steps exactly (although I think you were changing zoom, as in my original report, not width?)

This is MEP 2014 13.0.2.8 (UDC2).

But for me, only the first KF selected changes, not all of them as in your case!

It's also somewhat confusing that after a set of KFs has been selected they apparently all remain selected (blue) until you click at a different KF time or outside the KF area. But they are selected only for certain operations it seems, such as grouped moving or deletion.

I've also just had an email from Ralf saying:

"I believe the problem here is simply with your expectation that you can collectively change the zoom level of several keyframes at the same time by having them all selected in the keyframe animator. However, it simply isn't possible. What happens when you change one of the keyframeable parameters is simply that a new keyframe gets created. This is behaviour by design. That keyframe also doesn't get created at an arbitrary position. It gets created at the position of your cursor, which worked fine here in my test."

I still don't understand the spurious KF I'm getting but will re-test that shortly.

BTW, I don't see any distinction between using Ctrl or Shift, apart from the standard Windows one that alows you to select a group by selecting the first and then holding Shift while you select the last.

Nor can I see any distinction between Tab or Enter. I used Enter for my tests, as you did. Tab tends to be handier for me as it automatically jumps to the next box when changing Left, Top, Width or Height.

The outstanding mystery now is how you are managing to change multiple KFs and I can't!

(All tests repeated with Macro Express unloaded. As I expected, that makes no difference.)

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Terry,

Quick one seeing you're online:

Yes I'm doing a zoom but as I have 'Keep proportions' ticked I only needed to alter the width.

Just up, cuppa tea (not a red) next...

ADDED: now getting some odd results -- not consistent -- can't test more till later.

Carl

Hi Carl,

It must be very early there! I'm typing this from bed on my iPad.

Yes, I had tried Width too, just in case you'd stumbled on some obscure quirk for multi-KF editing! But I still get only the single selected KF changed. Which as you've now seen is consistent with Ralf's feedback.

Are you sure you didn't have one too many glasses of Shiraz before you did those earlier tests?

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Hi All

Terry - I think the method you should be using to change all selected keyframes by the same increment is "Edit Effects curve" which we discussed a little while back. So, select all the keyframes you wish to change so that they turn blue and then open the Edit Effects Curve box with the little down arrow to the right of the size posn title in the keyframer and change the effect strength by 10% or whatever.

The fact that by your method a "Spurious" keyframe appears is not spurious at all as this is normal behaviour for creating a new keyframe at the timeline marker posn, every time the effect value is altered. The only thing selecting all the markers as you have done allows, is dragging all of the KF's along in relation to time.

Peter

Terry,

Neither Shiraz nor Pinot Noir! Now I can't get multiple changes as I (AM SURE) did last night. I had repeated the multiple selection and all change in one hit several time to be sure, particularly the apparent difference between [Enter] and [Tab] behavior.

Now I am not so... The mystery remains outstanding! Sorry for the confusion. :-(

I'd suggest that the ability to make multiple selections should be removed, except the it definitely does work if you want to move a group of KFs the same amount.

Regards,

Carl, whoes earlier post was at about 7:30am local time (UTC+9:30)

Hi All

Terry - I think the method you should be using to change all selected keyframes by the same increment is "Edit Effects curve" which we discussed a little while back. So, select all the keyframes you wish to change so that they turn blue and then open the Edit Effects Curve box with the little down arrow to the right of the size posn title in the keyframer and change the effect strength by 10% or whatever.

 

Thanks Peter, forgot about that. I'll try it next session. Not as intuitive and fast though!

The fact that by your method a "Spurious" keyframe appears is not spurious at all as this is normal behaviour for creating a new keyframe at the timeline marker posn, every time the effect value is altered. The only thing selecting all the markers as you have done allows, is dragging all of the KF's along in relation to time.

And deleting them.

I think it would make sense to extend this to the Size/Position parameters, yes? Or some logical conflicts?

Terry, East Grinstead, UK 

I believe you, as over my years with MEP I've had a handful of similar bizarre but unrepeatable issues!

I suppose one other explanation could be something you did that indirectly invoked the Edit Curve functions that Peter has reminded me of.

Carl, whoes earlier post was at about 7:30am local time (UTC+9:30)

So much for my time zone arithmetic. Not so early at all then - my daily alarm is set for 05:55.

Terry, East Grinstead, UK 

Hi Terry

Have you tried the method I suggested yet for Zoom? I have found that I can set say 4 different sizes along the timeline and the select 3 and alter just 3 by the same amount using edit effects curve, but then if I try to do any further adjustment to say 2 or 3 keyframes using the same method, it moves all 4 by the same increment! 

Peter

Hi Peter,

I haven't yet grasped how to properly use the facility! From my experiments so far I'm tempted to it's buggy but I'll wait until I get feedback or until I've done more methodical testing . (That might be in early January as I'm away from my PC from 12-30 December.)

But let's first make sure we're in sync.

I placed 4 KFs on an object that initially filled my preview monitor (set to PAL Half), all with L=0, R=0, W=1920 and H=1080. From left to right, using the zoom box, I changed their zoom values from 100 as follows: #1=10, #2=20, #3=30 and #4=40. They all remained automatically centered, as I would want and expect.

I now want to change the first three to a zoom level of 50%, leaving them centered, just as if I was using the zoom box. We've established that this is unfortunately impossible by the most intuitive method of using the zoom box (at least north of the equator!) so I'm trying your suggested alternative.

For a start, I'm not yet sure how to select them. Experimenting gives different results depending on whether you use Ctrl or Shift and the order in which you select them. What exactly are the rules here and how do they relate to what you see in the monitor?

For my test I selected them as follows: from none selected I left clicked #1 then with Ctrl held I clicked #2 and #3. That seemed to leave #3 selected (although all 3 are still blue) which I thought would only add to any confusion. So I decided I'd click #1 again with Shift held. That got me a preview with #1 displayed (the smallest) but the bounding box apparently around #3. That at least apears to offer hope that a group will be edited.

I then switch to Edit effects curve... 

Now what? What are your steps to try to achieve this?

Some thinking aloud as I familiarise myself with this dialog, which I've rarely used

1. No current values are shown - all are apparently relative. (But are they? I got unexpected results.)

2. There's no OK button - the settings seem to be applied when you click the 'X' icon, yes? That's usually a Cancel function.

3. Following on from that, it seems I can't Reset from here.

4. Undo doesn't seem to work as I'd expect (directly after a change in the dialog), but does affect things if you click in the main window first.

5. Using the + and - buttons with '%' chosen gave me strange results that so far I haven't had time to understand.

6. At one stage, clicking '-' repeatedly with '1' and '%' set, the object got smaller and smaller, then suddenly jumped back to a slightly larger value, then resumed 'normal' operation.

In short, for the time being I'm lost!

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Phew! We seem to have opened a can of worms here Terry.

This is how I thought it should work when I answered a French members question on how he should change just the size on a bunch of preset keyframes in Size/Position:-

Click the triangle to the Left of the "Image size / position" name in the keyframe animator and all the individual parameters will appear ie. width, height, posn. etc. Click the triangle to the right of the parameter you want to change and select "Edit effects curve". Enter a pixel or % value in the appropriate Effect box and click the + or - button to change the effect for all keyframes, by the entered increment .

In your case, to change the size , Ctrl click the height and width parameter names after opening the Edit effects curve window - both will change at all keyframe points, by the entered increment, when clicking + or -.

It worked for me then and he was very happy also. Now I am having no end of trouble trying to do the same thing. It also seems apparent that the Edit effects curve window is probably only meant to be used to alter all the KF's settings by the same magnitude, not just selected ones. This probably explains why selecting groups of KF's is ineffective - they can be selected but only for the purpose of changing their time stamp relative to the others that are not selected. 

I can not change the zoom level of the whole group reliably in 2014, 2013 and MX. I am getting a shift in X and Y posn ie. off center size change and sometimes a 3D transformation gets added!! The uncentered posn change can at least be nullified by unticking x and Y posn in the expanded list of parameters in Size Posn. 

Some of this is probably what you have experienced but to comment on your points:-

1. Not sure what you mean here?

2. Affimative.

3&4. Clicking back on the object enables undo back through the number of times you incremented the effect change, but I would expect that to be the proper procedure.

5. Yes see strange results above.

6. Similar behaviour here.

Bit bamboozled here - you may need to go back to Ralf again.

I might try this with another effect - say contrast. Edit - this works for the whole group of KF's or in other words the "Edits the Effects Curve". See page 145 to 149 of PDF manual

Peter

Hi Terry

. . . . For my test I selected them as follows: from none selected I left clicked #1 then with Ctrl held I clicked #2 and #3. That seemed to leave #3 selected (although all 3 are still blue) which I thought would only add to any confusion. So I decided I'd click #1 again with Shift held. . . . .

To get more consistent results I think you need to be more precise in your testing approach - by doing the above with the Shift you have added in another variable whose efect we do not yet know.

My method would be:

1.   Set up a base project - to reload before carrying out the next test, ie always start from the same point.

2.   Using Ctrl key only, select the KF's,  first in 123 order,  then make adjustments and see what the results are.

3.   Re-load the base project and change the order of KF selection and see what the results are always making the same change using the same method/effect dialog.

4.   Repeat 2 and 3 for all combinations of KF selection order.

5.   Repeat 2 - 4 using the Shift key.

Apologies if it sounds like I am on a soap box, however consistant analytical method and a base starting point are very important in diagnosing issues like this.

Unfortuantely I cannot do any testing at the moment - I have been banned     from using my wifes laptop while on holiday, so I have been forced    to buy one and I am getting everything installed by tomorrow.

Merry Christmas to everyone 

Cheers

John

Hi John,

Methodical? I've even got the teashirt!

Seriously, I've tried just about every combination, all from the common base illustrated here:

When you get your Xmas laptop please use the same project: one 5 sec JPG with those four KFs applied, at any positions. I suspect when you do your tests that you'll get no consistent pattern in the results, as Peter and I are finding.

To get you started, try these few initial simple operations:

1. As illustrated here:

The answer to that last question is KF#1=0 #2=0 #3=0 #4=0

So I thought maybe Magix just got the + and - reversed as they have done occasionally in the past with L and R. So...

2. As above with % = 40, but click the - button.
Result: KF#1=90 #2=100 #3=110 #4=120

3. %=10, click the + button.
Result: KF#1=0 #2=0 #3=10 #4=20

4. %=10, click the - button.
Result: KF#1=30 #2=40 #3=50 #4=60

etc...

--------------------

Hi Peter,

Note in the above that the result appears to support your observation that regardless of how many KFs are selected, all are affected. My KF #4 did not stay unscathed.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Point taken John, it is sometimes tempting to overlook a completely methodical approach when presented with a raft of random and confusing results.

Terry - You need to use the upper Effect % box with the Up/Down arrows to get what you are trying to achieve. The lower one with the +/- buttons expands (Stretches) the amplitude of the effect about a mid point so that the lower value KF's get lower and the higher ones get higher. Fooled me initially and might explain why some values change by 20 instead of 10 when 10% is added as this is an increase of 10% in the amplitude of Total 200 points of the effect change, not 10% of 100.

It helps to visualise what the different changes in the different effects boxes in the Edit effects Curve window are doing if you click the eye symbols next to the individual parameters in KF controller, so that the "Effect Curve" and KF points is displayed in the timeline.

For the purpose of this exercise lets see if we can get the upper effect box to do what it is supposed to do consistently, when zooming an object, on all of the KF's, and then on selected keyframes which my experience shows it can not.

Cheers

Peter

Try this:

I set value to 10% in the 'Move position' edit effects curve window (red) and set the display to '%' in the effects window (blue). Now clicking on the up and down arrows gives results that make some sense -- the values are going up/down by 10 for each click (yellow)!

I say 'some' sense... The lower value 'Stretch / compress' behaves similarly but gives jumps of 20 even though its value was set to 10. Perhaps it means 10 to the left + 10 to the right etc? A setting of 0 behaves as if it was 1.

The 'Time' settings shifts all KFs selected or not. The upper window moves them as a block using the < & > buttons. The lower really does stretch them out -- a zero stays put and the rest move further apart.

ADDED: Note the top of the edit window lists all the effects -- Height, X-pos, Rotation etc as I chose 'Edit effects curve from the 'Image size/position' top entry. If you pick edit from one of the expanded list you can group alter a single parameter eg Height for all KFpoints:

I think this may be the key to Terry's original problem though he might have to do height and then width to alter the 'size' of his object. I see that his window (posting of 2013-12-10 09:46) has all parameters being edited rather than just what he's intending.

Regards,

Carl

Hi Terry

Will try yours, Carls and Peters test methods as soon as I get chance.

Cheers for now.

John

Peter, Carl,

Thanks both. I'll try those suggestions in two or three weeks when I get back.

But I must say that on the evidence so far this looks extraordinarily strangely designed to me. I'd have thought a simple + or - button could do the job, assuming a specific parameter had first been chosen. And it seems unfortunate that one of the most commonly used parameters, Zoom, is not individually accessible. The most frequent use of it is to increase width and height, with no change of the centre-point position.

I look forward to seeing any break-through insights from you both, plus John and hopefully Ralf, whom I've updated.

--------------------

Edit: I finished my holiday packing earlier than expected and decided to cut my losses and write a macro for the job. Took me a couple of hours but now I can simply select (make blue) any set of KFs, respond to a prompt asking me to specify the new zoom level, and it's done!

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Hi Carl

A useful tip to set the Effects box to % - Thanks - makes it clearer still.

Your latest post agrees with my 2 most recent answers 10-12-13.

It is crucial to open the "Edit Effect curve" box from the individual effect parameter dropdown but in the past I have been able to Ctrl click Height and Width (this shows only "Height, Width" in the top title bar of the Edit Effects Curve window) and have the effects group and change all KF's by the 10% but now even if I just select one, say height, it invokes an X or Y posn change. I think this is a bug. In some ways it seems logical that if you are going to zoom then the position co-ordinates must change also seeing as they are measured from the top left corner but it should somehow allow the frame to remain centered if you desire. Or maybe we are still missing something?

Peter

Peter and all,

"It is crucial to open the "Edit Effect curve" box from the individual effect parameter dropdown..."

True -- If you want to edit only one parameter at a time. For multiples I just discovered you can open the 'Edit effects curve' window once (from any parameter or the combined top one) and then click (or Ctrl click) on the parameter(s) you want to change. The window title changes to show which are selected eg 'X-pos., Y-pos.' or 'Width, Height, 'X-pos., Y-pos.'.

This approach extends to the KF-able Video effects as well so you can simultaneously edit say X-pos, Y-pos, Whirlpool and Brightness to create a gliding twisting fade in/out!

Note: You may find that in some situations a parameter seems to get 'stuck' (near zero) with no change in value display nor apparent change in preview -- even though you are continuing with sequential clicks on the [-] or [+] button. My guess is that that as you have selected change by '%' rather than change by 'Value', the paramtere continues to get calculated and reduced or enlarged but by amounts smaller than can be shown.

Regards,

Carl

QUIZ Q: What is 'ZRed'? ...or rather what would it be, if it existed!

Hi

. . . . QUIZ Q: What is 'ZRed'? ...or rather what would it be, if it existed! . . .

  An educated guess is that it is a programming hang over (    )  for the  Z axis - better known as  Zoom.

John

John,

I'll grant half marks for answer -- but full marks for trying! It is X-axis, but Rotation not Zoom. Note the three dials at the top of the Rotation/Mirror window. Changing the left two adds KFs to the XRed and YRed lines. The rightmost one displays the KFs as Rotation (on the picture plane aka X axis).

Now I'm stuck on why 'Red' for XRed & YRed which doesn't seem to match anything German for rotation according to Bing. Maybe it's something to do with drinking a Red -- I'll study in greater depth!

Regards,

Carl