Hello and thanks for your reply, genuinely appreciate it. :)

I'm not gonna pretend to know anything about technical stuff/terms, so will try responding to your answer 1 segment at a time, to try getting each thing sorted separately.

In regards to why I'm exporting my 50fps videos at 29.97, the honest answer is I don't fully know.

I was under the impression that because I'm using MovieMaker, that 29.97 works better with exports from it, as they are all in NTCS format?

Hence why I chose that rather than 25.

Ideally I would like to just export at the original 50fps, however I worry that the audio will be out of sync with the video if I try 50fps again?

Although is it more likely that 50fps would normally work fine and in sync if that was the original, and so the out of sync episode was just a 1-off/or even simply was caused purely by my graphics card not having managed to achieve 50fps at that moment?

I also do worry that if the videos are all shot in 50fps, how can the editing softwares be able to automatically convert that down to 29.97fps, but yet keep the entire thing looking identical to original/in sync?

As I don't want to be messing up my videos by reducing from 50fps to 29.97fps if there is no logical benefit, and if they should all be in sync even at 50.

And something like this-

2in1 Android Laptop tablet, 10.1" inch Android Tablet, Google Android 7.0 Nought , 16 GB Tablet PC Expandable up to 128GB, 64 Bit Quad Core up to 1.5 GHZ processor , Dual Camera, WiFi, Bluetooth, 800x1280 IPS, Multi-touch screen, Google Play Pre-loaded. Connectible Keyboard Case included in Bundle offer. - ZAITH (10") https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0721NCF3T/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_3pynBbS57T7JC

My business is extremely new, have already invested huge amount of money into producing content for it, but so am no longer in a position where I can be lax with cash (maybe in a few months if the brand takes off), but for now I cannot buy a mid-range laptop purely to process videos faster, lovely as that'd be.

I will buy a new alienware next year most likely though.

And something like this-

2in1 Android Laptop tablet, 10.1" inch Android Tablet, Google Android 7.0 Nought , 16 GB Tablet PC Expandable up to 128GB, 64 Bit Quad Core up to 1.5 GHZ processor , Dual Camera, WiFi, Bluetooth, 800x1280 IPS, Multi-touch screen, Google Play Pre-loaded. Connectible Keyboard Case included in Bundle offer. - ZAITH (10") https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0721NCF3T/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_3pynBbS57T7JC

It is a MediaTek CPU.... those CPU are normally used in phones.

You need an Intel Core CPU to have hardware acceleration, something that has an Intel Core i5, i7 or i9. Mine is just an Intel Core i5 and relatively OK for what I do ....making my family holiday video for own enjoyment.

For a business, an Intel Core i7 would be better as they say time is money and you do not want to spent too much time fiddling brightness on a video.

Edit: opps missed your comment about mid-range, so may be an i5 would do for now. Alienware is more towards gaming, so you may pay a premium for something similar. But of course you get bragging rights for having an Alienware.

Hi

Android devices will not run Movie Edit Pro, you must have a Windows based system in order to run the program.

For a modern laptop or a PC suitable for video editing you will be looking at spending £800 or more and, to avoid some issues, Intel i5 or i7 quad core processor based.

Using a gaming PC or laptop is not necessary, however, whether a PC or lap top, it does need to be a good quality machine considering the work load the it is subjected to when rendering.

If you are considering a laptop it must not be prone to overheating/slowing down, when driven hard by programs such as video editing, however the range of brands is getting limited.

Personally I would consider Toshiba, Gigabyte, ASUS or Lenovo.

HTH

John EB

And something like this-

2in1 Android Laptop tablet, 10.1" inch Android Tablet, Google Android 7.0 Nought , 16 GB Tablet PC Expandable up to 128GB, 64 Bit Quad Core up to 1.5 GHZ processor , Dual Camera, WiFi, Bluetooth, 800x1280 IPS, Multi-touch screen, Google Play Pre-loaded. Connectible Keyboard Case included in Bundle offer. - ZAITH (10") https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0721NCF3T/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_3pynBbS57T7JC

 

My business is extremely new, have already invested huge amount of money into producing content for it, but so am no longer in a position where I can be lax with cash (maybe in a few months if the brand takes off), but for now I cannot buy a mid-range laptop purely to process videos faster, lovely as that'd be.

 

I will buy a new alienware next year most likely though.

Good morning and thank you for being up front about your limited knowledge on the technical side :-)

To get back to basics, what you are asking for is similar to wanting a car that has Jaguar XJS 0-60 acceleration times but for the cost of a Kia Picanto. The tablet you have linked to is never going to have the performance you need.

You mention that the quality you see at 29.97fps seems to be identical to the original 50fps. If your exported version is at 4000kps, then you must be viewing it on a very small screen to notice no difference. If you view it on a 55" TV, you will immediately see the difference. That leads to another question, if you are selling the videos, are your customers viewing on small screens like a phone, or may some be viewing on smart tvs? If the latter, then you will be getting a lot of people unhappy with the quality. If the former, then you might as well film at a lower fps and bitrate, maintaining the same bitrate and fps for editing and exporting as it will look ok on a phone or small tablet.

The lack of sync between audio and video on the 50fps footage will be down to the system you are viewing on not having the performance to display it properly. The specs that have been suggested, i.e. processor etc are necessary to keep up with the data rate for high quality editing, it is a very cpu hungry process. Think of it as having a lot of horsepower to achieve very fast acceleration times. Without the power you can't get the performance, there are no cheap shortcuts!

That means that your only two paths are to cut down on the original filming quality and keep it all in PAL format, or bite the bullet and buy more horsepower. If your end product that your clients see is the video, then no matter how much you have invested in capturing the footage and promotion, your end product that brings in the money will let you down unless you have the equipment to maintain the quality. What I am saying is that if your business is producing videos to sell, then you HAVE to invest in appropriate equipment and gain the knowledge to produce great end product.

Sorry if that sounds doom and gloom but after 35 years of producing video as my business, I have also had to learn the hard way.

Roger

@RogerGunkel

Hi

. . . . I have also had to learn the hard way. . . . .

You are not alone in learning the hard way, I fell into the same trap, to quote my wife 'buy cheap buy twice'.

@Apollo89x

I must agree with Rogers sentiment in his first sentence above, it helps us help you 👍.

Thank you.

John EB

Thanks for the info about the new laptops. :)

Getting back to the FPS issue though-

My videos are all shot in 50fps.

I edit them 1st on Windows Movie Maker, and have the choice to save at whatever FPS I choose.

I have chosen 29.97 so far, as I believed because MM is NTSC, 29.97 would be best, however would my videos look better if I instead export them at 25fps, rather than 29.97 fps?

As my worry is that because 29.97 won't divide exactly into 50, like 25 does, that if I export at 29.97fps rather than 25fps, the audio/video will become out of sync??

Although given that MovieMaker ins NTSC software, well if 29.97 is the magic number for NTSC, i don't want to try exporting at 25fps if that'd cause the problem. :/


~

Just to say also though, thankyou for your help.
And I do apologise for being the way I was on this forum earlier this week. :/

Plus in regards to Magix software directly, whilst yes it doesn't do exactly all of what I wish it could do in the same ways I wish it could do, and so my personal limited level of capability MovieMaker is far better suited to me for most of my editing, I do accept that Magix is a very decent piece of software.

Plus ultimately it does offer some functions which I require use of for every video I edit, which no other editing software has/or has as good as Magix does it, and so Magix editor is very useful for me in every single video I edit.

@Apollo89x

IIRC you mentioned in one post that the video you are recording contains something that is moving relatively fast or has a lot of fast action eg sports action.

In which case recording at 50fps, ie 50p, is probably the best recording. Using 25 fps interlaced (interleaved) is going to cause issues on playback computer monitors.

Smart TV's and a lot of modern TV's can handle progressive video as well as the PAL or NTSC interlaced video from TV transmissions, also framerate is becoming less relevant as they can handle a variety of fps.

If you want to read more about which to choose - see this article it is not to long and explains the differences, the pitfall of using interlaced/interleaved for fast moving action and which you should choose, more succinctly then I could and has good advice in the last paragraph.

I tried several times to put something together for you, however it ended up too long full of ifs and or buts 😕, I then found the article linked to above.

HTH

John EB

Hello mate and thanks for the link.

I did read it all, and guessing the camera used to shoot my clips is progressive, my laptop/customer's laptops are progressive, but movie-maker is interlaced, correct?

I've taken onboard what you said regarding shooting at 50fps due to the motion, and so will keep the cameraman shooting these clips at 50fps.

The only reason I can think of why my laptop played/sometimes plays the 50fps videos out of sync is that my laptop's hardware struggles to handle 50fps playback, despite it being an alienware, as its now a 6year old laptop?

Or that uploading an MP4 file, converting to a WMV file with constant bitrate when exporting out off MovieMaker, then converting back to an MP4 file with constant bitrate, somehow caused lag/out of sync audio/video.

But so I will try to do my next video 1stly maintaining the original FPS when exporting out of MovieMaker, and then see if it remains in sync.

But if its also out of sync, I will then export all my future 50fps videos out of movie maker at 25fps (not 29.97fps),

as given the division is exact then, the videos should play/look smoother, vs changing from 50fps down to 29.97 (which won't divide equally),

If that is all correct please??

As John says, if your videos include fast moving action, then 50fps would be better than 25fps as you have twice the number of frames for the same length of footage, so less flickering on action shots. But of course if you are exporting it to a lower frame rate and bitrate anyway, the advantages of 50fps would be lost at the exporting stage which is why I suggested using a lower frame rate at the filming stage, to reduce the processing needed. You could ask your camerman to take some test shots at different frame rates and bitrates to see what format gives you the fastest editing speed with an acceptable end product. Also bear in mind that if you export at 50fps 4000kbs, each frame of your finished video will only have 50% of the data than it would if exporting at 25fps 4000kbs. Higher bitrate gives higher picture quality, higher frame rate gives a smoother flow to action shots.

Generally you are better off editing at the same frame and bitrate as the original footage for less pressure on the cpu, then exporting at the output you want to end up with for the clients. If I film in 4k I edit in 4k, and if I film in HD I edit in HD. I can then export either at whatever bitrate, framerate and format I want.

Sorry to harp on about the 29.97fps, but NTSC and PAL use different frame rates, so the equivalent of 50fps on a UK camera would be 59.94fps on a US one. If you are converting from 50-25fps then the frame rate is exactly halved. The same when converting from 59.94-29.97fps. However, if converting from 50fps to 29.97 there is more processing going on as it is not a direct halving of the frame rate, and more processing takes more time.

I haven't used WMM for a long time and can't tell you how flexible it is for import and export formats, but John can probably give you a better idea.

Bottom line is that frame rates and bitrates are a complex subject, but a basic grasp is essential to sort out how to get the best results for a given situation.

Roger

Thanks for your answer. :)

I don't export at 4,000 bitrate though, as too many artefacts.

Instead shoot at 27k bitrate, and export (out of Magix) with end file post-edit being 16k - 19k bitrate (mp4 variable bitrate).

So still lower than source, but not noticeable quality-wise.

I would ofcourse like it to export out of Magix at 27,000 bitrate like it is when imported into Magix, however because Magix exports into mp4 format VBR, not CBR, I cannot prevent that bitrate loss occurring.

(Unless Magix offer a function to export in MP4 format at VBR?) :)

But ok well I will test my next edit tomorrow and see if a 50fps original can maintain sync post-edit still being kept at 50fps.

If it cannot, I will reduce it to 25fps when I start to edit, and keep it at 25fps.

Will abandon entirely converting from 50fps to 29.97fps though, as there seems to be no logical benefit of doing that, vs instead converting from 50fps straight to 25fps. :)

@Apollo89x

Hi

I to like Roger have not used WMM for a long time so I cannot say, for the current version, how flexible it is for export formats, however there is a way to find out.

Download and install MediaInfo - this is a small program for analysing video and audio files and is the one we recommended for identifying what the video/audio contains.

Open MediaInfo and load a WMM exported clip into it.

You should now get a load of technical data, if you look down the list, under the video section you will find the lines indicated in bold below (this is part of the results for a mp4 clip)

MediaInfo data

General
Complete name                            : C:\Users\John\Videos\2018-05-08 16-46-54.mp4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media
Codec ID                                 : isom (isom/iso2/avc1/mp41)
File size                                : 8.17 MiB
Duration                                 : 24 s 234 ms
Overall bit rate                         : 2 827 kb/s
Writing application                      : Lavf57.84.100

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : Main@L4.2
Format settings                          : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, RefFrames               : 4 frames
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 24 s 234 ms
Bit rate                                 : 2 500 kb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 60.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.020
Stream size                              : 7.20 MiB (88%)
Writing library                          : x264 core 148 r2762 90a61ec

As you can see this example is a 1920 x 1080 widescreen, 60 fps, Progressive, Constant bitrate at 2500 kb/s clip.

The other option for Scan type is interlaced.

If you need to post the data from MediaInfo, switch to the Text view - you can then select and copy the data and paste it into a comment

HTH

John EB

@Apollo89x

Glad to hear you have given up on the 4000kbs export, as you have said there are too many artefacts. For the 12min clips that you are exporting, around 20,000kbs seems like a good setting to maintain quality. Yo can set CBR in the Magix software from the export-advanced menu, although I always use VBR. For a setting of around 20Kkbs, I would use a minimum of 20Kkbs and a maximum of 26Kkbs. Using variable bitrate, particularly with your action videos, the bitrate will increase to the maximum you set during parts that contain lots of movement and changes between frames. More changes per frame means that more data is generated, and that will be handled better if a higher bitrate is available, hence VBR. if you are filming a white wall continuously or a scene with no movement, then the changes are minimal or none, so a constant bitrate will be fine for the steady data. As soon as you get a lot of movement though, CBR won't be able to offer increased data speed, so you could get movement artefacts.

As I said in my previous post, bitrates and fps are a complex subject and the more you understand it, the better your finished product will be :-) This is another reason why higher end editing software such as Magix programmes, offer many variables that enable you to set things up just the way you want them rather than putting up with basic out of the box settings. It makes the software more challenging, but once you get the hang of using it and the reasons why, it is well worth it as you move on with your business.

Roger

Hello and thanks for your informative reply.

I was unaware that on Magix you can export with VBR but setting a minimum threshold?!?

If that is a feature offered I will be very interested indeed in using it though! :)

I have the Movie Edit Pro version, but cannot see an option to adjust the BR format when exporting; unless that menu is only available on the plus/premium versions?

~

In regards to my specific FPS query though, I do worry that if I drop the FPS from 50 to 25fps when exporting, even though it interlaces automatically, the audio/visual surely must become out of sync by doing that?

(As the audio will remain constant, but the girl's mouth will move only half as much visually due to only 50% of the true frames being shown, so it may look fake/unnatural).

So I'm gonna give it another go with maintaining 50fps all the way through, and hopefully it will be fine not endup out of sync for any reason.

Since if the source was shot at 50fps, well that is the true rate for sync, so there is no logical reason why it should endup out of sync at that rate (unless the fault is with my laptop failing to handle playback at 50fps)?

But that means that fault is my laptop, not the footage.

@Apollo89x

Hi

. . . . I was unaware that on Magix you can export with VBR but setting a minimum threshold? . . . .

The adjustment of the export settings is selected by clicking the Advanced option circle in red in the image below.

You also set me off on another track - can a pseudo Constant bitrate be forced and the answer would appear to be yes, by making the Average bitrate and the Maximum bitrate the same value as shown circled in blue below.

Here is the MediaInfo data

Test sample:

Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 35.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9

Normal default mp4 export

Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 21.9 Mb/s
Maximum bit rate                : 28.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9

Note the Maximum bitrate is missing in the test I did.

@RogerGunkel

Can you confirm that you get the same please

. . . . if I drop the FPS from 50 to 25fps when exporting, even though it interlaces automatically, the audio/visual surely must become out of sync by doing that? . . . .

For mp4 export (and several other formats) the audio is not synchronised to the video using the video frames, ie it is independent of the framerate.

HTH

John EB

Thanks, have found that menu.

Will look at those bits in a minute, but 1stly one other thing i've seen is the option to have my preset as ''AVCHD transport stream 1920x1080 50p HQ'',
but i also could change it to ''MP4 fullHD 1920x1080 50p''.

I ofcourse have very limited technical knowledge, so no idea what a AVCHD transport stream is, but would it be best to leave my videos exporting in that, or to change to mp4 full HD, if my main goal is to achieve best quality playback, and avoid risk of audio/video being out of sync?


~


Disregard the above question, as when I changed any of the variables on that menu it automatically changed it from being AVCHD to being custom anyways.

In regards to the VRB, for mp4 the option to change that to CBR was greyed-out.
And for VBR there is no option for setting a minimum, only an average and a maximum.

However Magix does seem to process at a very good end bitrate as standard, so I have just set Max at 28,000, average at 26,000, the menu option below to 2,500, the FPS rate to 50, and for coding quality I changed it from better to 'Best'.


So the file is now taking 12hours to export, vs the 8 previously, however hopefully changing the coding quality to best will improve the end result of the video, and so is worth that extra 4hours. :)

@Apollo89x

AVCHD are effectively BluRay format files - the preset does have the option for constant bitrate though as you are wanting Progressive video the option is a non starter - it cannot be changed to progressive so the output is interlaced/interleaved format.

. . . . . ''AVCHD transport stream 1920x1080 50p HQ'', but i also could change it to ''MP4 fullHD 1920x1080 50p''. . . . .

My bad, 😔, I should have said I started with the MP4 Full HD 1920 x 1080 50p - this is Progressive 50 fps. - MP4 is also the 'universally' supported format.

HTH

John EB

Ok well I selected the custom settings setup which I stated above.

For coding quality I selected 'best' rather than 'better', so the video still has 6hours left out of the 12, but I'm just praying its all in sync and plays smoothly on my laptop without any lag.

Ok well my video finally finished exporting, it held 20k+ bitrate, and the audio was in sync-
However I have realised now that 50fps just looks wierd and un-natural/fake compared to 25fps which I'm used to normally seeing on TV.

The 50fps just looks artifical and strange, not easy viewing on the eye.

SO, i now have to re-export the whole clip in 25fps! :Z lol


But atleast now i've learnt that theres no need to export a 50fps source file from Windows Movie Maker at 29.97fps, when I can instead just export it at 25fps and have a much better result hopefully.
Have also learnt that I can increase the bitrate quality in Magix via that advanced menu.


1 final question I have for now though please-

My videos are shot in 50fps, but I will have them endup at 25fps.
They will be exported twice- 1stly through Windows Movie Maker (when editing), then 2ndly through Magix (for lighting correction).
I have the choice to export (convert) them at 25fps when saving out of WMM 1stly, or to export at 50fps from WMM, and then export out of Magix at 25fs; But is there any difference/benefit as to at which stage of the editing process I change the frame-rate, or does it make literally no difference?



 

Sorry with all the questions, but I have another little one-

My source video is 50fps, I upload it onto Windows Movie Maker to edit it then save it as 25fps.

The saved file shows as being 25fps, even tested in VLC player data and it says the file is 25fps.

However when I then upload it onto Magix, Magix says that the file is 26fps... :S

I ofcourse click to adjust the file to 25fps, but am confused as to why Magix interprets the file as being 26fps if/when its not??

Hi

So the file is now taking 12hours to export, vs the 8 previously, however hopefully changing the coding quality to best will improve the end result of the video, and so is worth that extra 4hours. :)

In my tests with 1080 50P footage changing from better to best greatly increases the encoding time with no noticeable improvement in quality.

I would never encode anything at Constant bitrate as this loses a lot of the benefits of MPEG compression and leads to lower quality than the equivalent VBR bitrate and resultant file size. This is because the total bits available to create the export file are wasted on frames with little detail or action when they could be used on frames with a lot of action or detail as during VBR encoding. IOW the "quiet" frames will look okay but the "busy" frames will be worse than a VBR encode, unless you set an excessively high bitrate in CBR with a resultantly huge export file size.

one other thing i've seen is the option to have my preset as ''AVCHD transport stream 1920x1080 50p HQ'',

I would use this unaltered to produce encoded files at the same quality and format as the original camera files (.mts), as the preset is tailored to the AVCHD 2 specification. I use this exclusively and can advise the quality is indistinguishable from the camera original on a 50" HD screen, and I am very fussy. As John has pointed out 50P is not compatible with Bluray standard so you should encode the timeline via the Burn Bluray disc section of MEP with the default preset, which will convert it to the compatible 25fps interlaced, if you need a Bluray output. VBR will be used in either case and CBR generally is not relevant in anything but some streaming applications (where you would not be using such high bitrate files anyway).

@johnebaker

You also set me off on another track - can a pseudo Constant bitrate be forced and the answer would appear to be yes, by making the Average bitrate and the Maximum bitrate the same value as shown circled in blue below.

I suggest the answer is no because the VBR will still trade bits between the simpler and more complex frames, although the maximum setting should limit the bitrate on any part of the file from from going over that.

Note the Maximum bitrate is missing in the test I did.

Not sure what you mean here? It is present in your screen shot...

Peter