Hi Jeff,

Thanks, yes, 2014 has those too. And you're right, that is one way I could overcome the cramping problem. But I'd really prefer to use the Next/Previous tool rather than the mouse because I'm trying to write a macro for processing many successive collage objects. And keystrokes would simplify that greatly. Otherwise I have to locate the blue KFs by a complex process of testing pixel colours, etc!

Do you get the same unexpected behaviour as I described in VPX?

Terry, UK

Hi Terry,

I think Jeff was referring to the kf curves activated in the timeline. In VPX6, you can modify the points on the timeline, thus if you zoom in tight on the timeline you can see clearly and grab that individual point, move it or delete it. I don't think that the points show up in MEP do they?

See below. I grabbed the point that has a kf that is difficult to get to, but by zooming in on the timeline I can see it and move or delete it.

Hi Terry, I haven't, I think, seen your second problem and won't be able to check it in VPX5 for some days.  But will test when I can.

John, I don't have VPX6 since my OS is 32 bit so, no, I don't think VPX5 has the KFs on the timeline, does it?  Or is this another example of something I never realised was available.

Jeff,

I don't have VPX5, but I suspect that it was available. Try it to see. It's not an accurate way to do things but these points can certainly help in cases like Terry's or when some thing jist doesn't work right and looking only at the kf diamonds doesn't help.

Hi Terry,

I think Jeff was referring to the kf curves activated in the timeline.

Hi John,

Well, Jeff hasn't contradicted you but I don't think he was referring to the KF curves. If he was, I'm confused! The +/- zoom tool just contracts the 'KF timeline'. Actually, now that I've played with it a bit following Jeff's suggestion, I don't think it really helps anyway. Once you've set that KF timeline range, you have to reset it again before you can see all your KFs. And I'm not sure exactly when it would be useful? (Couldn't find anything in the manual about it.)

Nor do I think using the curves solves my problem. To recap, what I'd expected to be able to do is use the Next / Previous KF arrows to get to a specific KF and then use the Delete key to remove it, without having to click it with the mouse first. I confused things by combining this with the 'cramping' issue.

Hi Terry,

Rather than a keystroke, why don't you just press on the X to the right of the Next / Previous KF arrows since you're almost beside it after clicking on the arrow?

Thanks John, you're a star! I've never used that X but I'm sure it's a delightfully simple solution to my problem. Can't check it right now in MEP (I'm using the iPad and viewing a screenshot of the KF area).  But I reckon that will do the job nicely and will try it in the morning.

BTW, on an associated point we've discussed before, have you found a reliable way of working with KFs that lie outside the object? I still get into difficulties after adjusting object durations and KF positions (usually when making complex collages) when some or all of the object's KFs vanish from sight. My usual recourse is then to note or mark the current duration of the object, if it's important, and then drag both edges to extend it until hopefully the AWOL KFs come back in sight. And then manipulate them back to their correct positions.

I was about to post about the x button.......

Terry

You would use the KF timeline zoom to make partially obscured KF easier to manipulate or select as you seem to be having trouble doing. One instance would be to make a small adjustment to the timing of the KF by dragging in the KF timeline, as opposed to the main timeline "effects curve" view where it would be possible to upset the strength setting of the effect in the process.

I am not sure how using the delete key would know what to delete if you did not highlight the KF as the object in the arranger needs to be highlighted to view the KFramer and would of course be deleted.

As mentioned below the effect parameter(s) needs to be selected in blue, in your case Size / Position for everything to work smoothly. In your screen shot it is not.

Jeff

The Effects curve points have always been editable in the main timeline in all plus versions of MEP. You need to click the eye symbol in the KFramer and make sure the effect parameter you wish to adjust, say height, is highlighted in blue at the left of the kFramer. 

BTW Ctrl+Shift+Left click deletes the KF nodes in the main Arranger/timeline Effects Curves.

Page 145 on, gives good information on this area.

Peter

I was about to post about the x button.......

Terry

You would use the KF timeline zoom to make partially obscured KF easier to manipulate or select as you seem to be having trouble doing. One instance would be to make a small adjustment to the timing of the KF by dragging in the KF timeline, as opposed to the main timeline "effects curve" view where it would be possible to upset the strength setting of the effect in the process.

Thanks Peter. That's what I thought Jeff meant, but in practice it doesn't seem possible. You can't adjust the zoom if there are already any KFs present on the object. You have to set it before you place any. Which seems to prevent its use in most situations. Even if I knew that I was going to need some closely spaced KFs near to the start of the object and duly reduced the range (increased the zoom) to help me, I'm then stuck with that range for any other KFs elsewhere in the object! For example, how would I then add some near the end of the object?

I am not sure how using the delete key would know what to delete if you did not highlight the KF as the object in the arranger needs to be highlighted to view the KFramer and would of course be deleted.

The puzzle I raised in my original post was that I thought it should  delete the KF if it was selected (blue). It doesn't. It still deletes the object, just as if the KF was not selected.

As mentioned below the effect parameter(s) needs to be selected in blue, in your case Size / Position for everything to work smoothly. In your screen shot it is not.

That doesn't seem to fix the issue, just raises more questions, as shown here:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/MEP-DeletingKF-4.jpg

EDIT: I'm still working on this but I now strongly suspect that some of the apparently inconsistent behaviour I'm seeing could be because one of my test objects had another effect (Quantize) applied to it. Almost invisible to me, as I normally have just two lines open in the keyframer, but you can just see 'Quan' in my screenshot.

Page 145 on, gives good information on this area.

I'd read all of that section and I've just studied it again, but I see no mention of  the +/- KF timeline zoom tool.

--------------------

As I expected, the X key solves my problem of writing a simple macro script, thanks both!

Hi Terry

You can't adjust the zoom if there are already any KFs present on the object.

You can here! We are talking about the grey bar at the very bottom of the KFramer timeline, with the +/- symbols at the far right.  This is hidden below quantize in your  screen shots. You need to drag the KFramer window up with the top of the black bar to make it deeper. 

Once zoomed in you can see outside of the zoomed area by dragging the bar side to side, a la Windows explorer.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Bingo! Thanks a bunch, that explains it. As mentioned, I've always worked with only a couple of lines open in the key framer, as I rarely keyframe anything other than size, position and rotation. I have macros that rapidly scroll that shallow pane when needed. In this case I had no obvious reason to look beyond the first line, Size/position.

I'll have to consider revising my approach.

Any thoughts on those two unexpected results?

Hi Peter and Terry,

It's funny how we can look without seeing. Terry didn't notice the X to delete a keyframe. I didn't notice the left and right arrows on the screen for previous and next kf until Terry mentioned them, and we both didn't notice the kf horiz. scroll bar until Peter insisted it was there and could be used to zoom in. They just blended into the background. Must be getting old or something, but I put it down to too much to remember.

Thanks to both of you for these.

Terry,

I haven't had your second problem, but I guess Peter solved it.

As for the kf points on the effects curve on the timeline, I couldn't get them to work in MEP2014Plus. Terry, were you able to make them work? If not, then this is a feature unique to VPX6.

While I'm here, I sent in another long complaint about problems with VPX6, now about not being able to use Xara properly to make changes to the DVD menu (yes, this can be done in VPX6), more VPX6 to Xara and back animation problems, and Video Sound Cleaning Lab 2014 not working properly with VPX6. The reply actually pertains to problems some users may be experiencing with some of the Magix problems due to a MicroSoft update that affects hundreds of users per day, some problems about encoding causing thousands of issues per day, plus the Burning issues affecting a variety of hardware configurations, and resolving these is taking up all of the development resources. Thus resolving inherent problems in the software, especially where there are workarounds, has been put back till later. I think this may explain some of the issues that we have been seeing with users. I wish that Magix would post a statement to this effect, possibly describing in more detail the symptoms, problems, and workarounds if any, and that they are working hard to resolve these issues. Then we could refer users to the Magix message when we see problems that fit the message. I will mention this in my reply.

Hi John

Always glad to help improve the Magix experience by enlightening others.

As for the kf points on the effects curve on the timeline, I couldn't get them to work in MEP2014Plus. Terry, were you able to make them work? If not, then this is a feature unique to VPX6.

As I mentioned earlier, to be able to see and adjust the nodes:-

You need to click the eye symbol in the KFramer window and make sure the effect parameter you wish to adjust, say height, is highlighted in blue at the left of the kFramer. Otherwise all you see is a line and the nodes do not appear.

BTW Ctrl+Shift+Left click deletes the KF nodes in the main Arranger/timeline Effects Curves. You can add nodes just by left clicking anywhere on the curves.

Terry

Need to do some more experimentation with your other questions.

Peter

Hi Terry

I have had a look again and while still unclear about some behaviour, I think that the 2 instances you didn't expect, I would expect.

1. The delete key deletes anything that is selected in either timeline. In your case the TL object is dark yellow = selected and deletes with the key. As I said earlier - you need to have the object selected to see the Keyframe window but there is an intermediate state where the object is light yellow = inactive, which I can only create by clicking the Undo icon. In this state the KFramer is still visible and things there can be selected and deleted selectively with the Del key.

3. If the effects parameter (Name) is Blue = selected then Delete will delete the whole effect parameter and KF's. This however probably doesn't apply to a group of parameters such as in Size/Position.

Having just written this - there does seem to be some inconsistant behaviour when using the Del key in relation to the KFramer which could be a bug, but I would venture to say that the safest way is to use the controls within the KFramer window or select KF's in the KF window or on the effect curve in the object, and avoid the delete key. 

Peter

Hi Peter,

Thanks for taking the time to investigate.

I'll avoid using the delete key! And use the red X instead. IMO the delete key causes inconsistent behaviour. In particular I still think that if a KF has been selected (made blue) using Next / Previous instead of mouse clicking the KF, then the delete key should delete the KF only, not the object.

Like you, I have yet to pin down this and other behaviour. It does seem connected with the mysterious 'light yellow state'. I'd previously thought that colour only arose when grouping multiple objects, but now I see that's not true.

Playing with two otherwise identical objects, one below the other, grouping and ungrouping, adding a size/position KF to one and /or the other, deleting the KFs with the delete key or the red X - I got various results I can't explain. Sometimes both are light yellow, sometimes just one, (and sometimes, of course, neither, when I click elsewhere).

Thanks to you and Jeff, I'm grateful to now have the +/- tools properly grasped.

But IMO the design is poor, as I've illustrated here:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/MEP-KFramer-Zoom.jpg

I've not yet got into using effect curves. My few excursions in the past quickly led to a rat's nest of lines and scrambled animations!

Terry,

As for the kf points on the effects curve on the timeline, I couldn't get them to work in MEP2014Plus. Terry, were you able to make them work? If not, then this is a feature unique to VPX6.

Yes, but only after some time!

They appeared when, experimenting impatiently, I opened the other features by clicking the tiny arrow.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/EditEffectsCurveInTimeline-1.jpg

I only tried that in case there was something in the list I'd somehow forgotten. There wasn't, of course. But then I re-read Peter's earlier reply which sorted it!

However, it does seem odd that you have to turn the eye blue and the effect name alongside.

However, it does seem odd that you have to turn the eye blue and the effect name alongside.

I guess they did this to make it clearer which curve you are working on if you have several curves set. In older versions I think all the curves an nodes were there all the time once set.

Another annoying thing is that the eye symbols need to be reactivated if you use undo at any point.

But IMO the design is poor....

Yes, I have never been happy with that whole mediapool effects area pane where you have to constantly shuttle views up and down to get to stuff. There is a lot of wasted space to the right so it seems a pity they can not utilise this by say creating a second vertical column for the effects menus at least. I have taken to moving the whole mediapool pane on to my second monitor if I am doing much effects stuff, so that I can see most of the menu options and a decent height view of the KFramer, without the restriction of the main timeline. Not ideal though because it takes you focus away from what is happening on the Preview monitor whilst making subtle adjustment.

Guess I'll just have to get a 32" UltraHD monitor!

Peter
 

Hi all,

We're learning something new everyday.

Terry, it is not the little down arrow that is supposed to be clicked, you just have to click on the parameter that you want to edit and if the eye is turned on, the nodes appear on the curve in the object. This now makes sense to me.

Thanks for finding out that one could turn on the nodes in MEP. For some reason, I didn't seem to have this problem in VPX6, so I will have to revisit it.

 

Terry, it is not the little down arrow that is supposed to be clicked, you just have to click on the parameter that you want to edit and if the eye is turned on, the nodes appear on the curve in the object. This now makes sense to me.

Hi John,

Yes, I only tried that for the reason I mentioned, and because I hadn't carefully read Peter's clear instructions!