Hi Terry

This behaviour has been in MEP for a long while and occurs even if you have Single track ripple selected. IIRC it was brought up many times in the old forum.

The 'quick and dirty' solution was to lock the track(s) that you did not want to move while editing .

Personally I never use the Edit trimmer - I swapped the Edit trimmer and Object trimmer shortcuts around so I only have to press a single key to get the Object trimmer which I use a lot.

@ John CB - here the default transition length is 1 sec and is the same for any frame rate PAL or NTSC

HTH

John EB

Thanks both.

John EB,
Yes, locking proved to be the no-brainer answer I needed.

John CB
1s default here too in MEP 2016 for the standard crossfade.

For the time when I'm compelled to use that dauntingly complicated Edit Trimmer, I've filed your impressively detailed notes. But meanwhile I'll settle for the more intuitive locking work-around.

I do use the Object Trimmer, but mainly via a few hotkey activated macros:
Ctrl+Alt+1: 0.5s fade-in
Ctrl+Alt+2: 0.5s fade-out
Ctrl+Alt+3: Both the above

(My '0.5s' = 13f.)

I also wrote a fourth
Ctrl+Alt+4 to apply the proper 'Thru black' transition, because I thought we'd lost it? Wasn't there an identically named transition but which did not fully fade out and back? Maybe it's returned in a recent patch? Anyway, I'm pleased to get it back. (Oddly, its transition length is 24f, not 1s.)

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

@johnebaker

Thanks for confirming the 1s. In NTSC I get 29f instead of 30 if the project is set to 29.97fps, in VPX.

I take it that you don't often do transitions. The Edit Trimmer is more convenient to use than the Set transition length dialogue box to quickly change the transition length, and nothing else moves. I shouldn't talk, as I've only recently started using the 2 trimmers.

Hi Terry,

You posted a few seconds before I did.

Try the Edit Trimmer. It will save you from having to lock / unlock tracks.

Hi Terry

. . . . the proper 'Thru black' transition, because I thought we'd lost it? . . .

AFAIK it never got lost, however there was a change in how it is displayed with the release of MEP 2015 as shown below

MEP 2014 and earlier

MEP 2015 and later

If you have not seen it there is a right click, Settings option for this where you can also change the colour of the fade through, remove the transition and change its length.

John EB

@johnebaker

Thanks, I had never seen that one.

In VPX, I see that the right-click settings brings up Standard Colorfade and Fade through black presets with the red lights on. Is Fade thru black the only one that Colorfade works with? I tried a few others.

Hi

There is also the "Flexible Crossfade" preset that allows you to change the rate at which the A and B clips fade in and out relative to each other. It has 3 modes Linear, Sigma and Exponential. Linear is a standard crossfade, Exponential alters the rate exponentially at which clip A progresses into Clip B with a slider to adjust at which end of the fade the rapid change takes place, and Sigma with which the fade is centered and symmetrical but the rate of change is a Sigma curve with a slider that can create a gradual or very rapid rate of change, smoothly.

Using the Sigma option, with the slider hard right you can create a fade of short duration without changing the overlap of the clips.

Hmmm....I wonder how the Edit trimmer deals with the above possibilities?

I find the Exponential one quite useful where there is something dodgey happening in the last few frames of a clip but I cannot afford to trim the clip or shorten the fade duration or Timestretch the clip. IOW you can have most of the fadeout done later to better mask what is happening in the last frames.

Peter

Hi Peter,

That one is interesting; too bad it can't be used on other types of transitions, or can it?

In VPX, the Edit trimmer simply applies the transition to whatever transition length is shown in the trimmer, and everything is the default - Sigma, and transition = 0. If you want to change the parameters, you have to close the Edit trimmer.

@terrypin

I think that I described Buttons 6 and 7 incorrectly.

6 changes the end of the left clip, such that the transition beginning moves left or right. The left clip is lengthened, if possible, or shortened depending on which button is used.

7 keeps the transition as is but changes the position of the start in point of the selected clip, such that if there is trimmed material at the left end, the left hand button moves the end of the clip to the right, without the left transition moving. Thus new material appears at the left end. Using the right button, the clip is shortened by sliding the material behind the left end, such that the left end has a new in point. Interesting.

It's going to take some playing around and practical use to remember what does what, but after reviewing these, using the trimmer appears to be much more powerful that seat-of-the-pants sliding objects back and forth. I should have been using these tools long ago.

OT, I have been playing around with Blufftitler again and following through a tutorial that came up in the community this week. Very interesting. I also didn't realize that there were many different stock "shows" that are quite simple that come with the product and that are quite easy to modify. Too many of those BT packages have shows that are just too much. I'm finding that amazing things can be done without all of the glitz and glam and fireworks. However, there is a very steep learning curve if you want to understand what is happening. Once you grasp a few of the basics, then things start to get interesting.

Hi John CB

. . . . . Standard Colorfade and Fade through black presets with the red lights on . . . .

Where are the 'red lights' ?

This is what I get in VPX and MEP for right click Settings on the Thru black transition

John EB

Hi John EB,

I should have shown the image.

The icons for Fade through black and Colorfade are on. So is Zooming, which was a previous selection and it should be off.

In MEP2016 Premium, if I apply the Fade thru.., click on the transition button on the timeline, Settings, nothing happens. In VPX, it jumps to the Fades tab and turns on the colourwheel. In MEP2016, if I click on the Fades tab, there is no colourwheel. I have to apply Colorfade to get it to show up, and then Fade thru black once again. Maybe someone can confirm this problem in 2016, and that it works properly in 2017.

I just reopened VPX and the first thing was to click on the transition box that is Fade thru black/Colorfade ( I made it red), and select Settings. The Fades tab opened, still with red lights on the 3 icons in my image above, but the Colourwheel did not show up. I had to reapply it to be able to modify it, which, of course, loses the setting. Undo gets it back and the Colourwheel stays on the screen.

No big deal, but can someone check this?

I then deleted all of the transitions, one by one, by changing each to Cut (no fade), but the 3 icons still had the red lights on.

Hi John CB

. . . . the Colourwheel did not show up . . . .

I think this happens the very first time you use the Thru black, Settings in a project - after that it appears as it should.

This happens in both MEP Premium and VPX - there is a quicker way to make the wheel appear - click the
A🕑B and cancel the dialog - the colour wheel then appears.

. . . . still with red lights on . . . .

I only get the red 'lights' on immediately when I drag a fade from the Fades tab to an object, if I add a transition by clicking the transition button on an object the red light does not appear while in the Fades tab.

However move away from the Fades tab, eg to the Import tab, and then go back they do appear, or disappear if removed.

Looks like both behaviours another minor screen refresh bug.

John EB

I had always thought the fade through black preset was the same as your first screenshot as in 2014 John and did the same thing as butting the clips together and fading the ends of each clip. It appears it is now something different and is more like a crossfade and the result is not the same in that it now shortens the timeline by overlapping the clips, although a manual setup is still possible with the fading handles.

This led me to do some tinkering which uncovered some unknown possibilities.

1. With a manual FTB you can add a Fade Thru Colour by clicking the fade symbol at the end of the clip.
2. You can add any other Fade in the same way - say Blinds.
3. You can overlap the clips with a colour fade at the ends on track 1 and 3 and drag a fade in between them so that you get a composite effect. The fade appears on the timeline as what I assume is an Alpha (GPU accelerated) object with the extension .vxx, which can be dragged out to any length and has the up or down arrow.
4. Rt clicking on the Fade Alpha effect in 3. opens a menu to choose the Edit Trimmer where you can select a different Fade by clicking JohnCB's (5) button, or Settings.
5. Selecting the Settings with a Flexible Crossfade in place (as in 3.) shows a Sigma setting curve but the adjustable slider shows an Exponential curve applied and any attempt to adjust the slider crashes MEP2017.

Fascinating that you can apply more than one effect to a Fade using the above but not sure yet what I could do with it!

Peter

Hi Peter,

Yes, that's what I was referring to in my last post. Originally (in MEP 2015?) we had what I call a 'proper' Thru Black, which faded out and in again and represented it correctly, as in John EB's first screenshot. And maintained overall duration of the two objects. But at some stage in MEP 2016/2017 I have an (admittedly vague) recollection that not only did the representation change, to look like a Crossfade, and shorten the combined duration, but it actually changed the effect in some subtle way? Maybe I dreamt it.

Anyway, the position here in MEP 2016 Premium and MEP Premium ('2017') is that the effect is still a full fade out and back, but the representation has reverted to the 'crossfade-like' one, distinguished only by the accompanying icon. And, more important, as you point out the overall duration is now shorter (by the length of the transition, default 1 s). With a definite downside IMO, namely that the sort of 'unexpected behaviour' I've been raising recently has to be considered, like stuff in lower tracks shifting.

Hi

@ Terry

. . . . the overall duration is now shorter (by the length of the transition, default 1 s) . . . .

Not here - it just looks like it is shorter - there is still 1 second from start to finish - 12 frames of the left object and 13 frames of the right that fade out/in.

John EB

Hi John

We are not questioning that the duration of the fade is different but that the new version has shortened the movie by 1 second. The right hand end of your righthand clip will now be 1 sec closer to the start of the timeline and the movement is upsetting Terry's other tracks relation to the faded track.

Hi all,

I tested the Fade Through Black (FTB) again in VPX. Applying it shortens the overall length by 1s by moving the right clip (and everything at the right and below) to the left overtop of the left clip. Using the colour transition fades to the colour selected, and fades back in.

Putting the FTB on track 3 and adding some colour, fades to the colour and then to black; no fade in.

So, I don't see any way to make the FTB and back in as done by MEP2014 except manually.

"So, I don't see any way to make the FTB and back in as done by MEP2014 except manually."

Thanks John, I agree. Duly re-instated my macro to do it 🙂

Hi

@ Peter

Thanks for the clarification - I see what you mean.

For both video images - the 'dirty fix' is to lock the tracks not required to move.

Images then get stretched however video behaves differently.

For video, if the clip has had the start trimmed and the other tracks are locked, then up to 1 sec is recovered, eg if the trim was for 0.5 secs the transition is applied with a length of 0.5 secs.

If there is no trimming to the start of the video clip, there is nothing to recover, the transition is not applied.

Either way it is not an ideal situation compared to MEP 2014 and earlier.

This behaviour was introduced in MEP 2015 and yet, AFAIK, this behaviour has never been queried in the forum.

I have never noticed this behaviour until this topic started, and I use the Through black transition regularly to indicate a change of topic, location or time 😕.

John EB

Hi,

@johnebaker

"If there is no trimming to the start of the video clip, there is nothing to recover, the transition is not applied."

In MEP2016 P, with either track 1 locked or other tracks locked: if the left video clip has been trimmed at its right end and the right video clip not trimmed at the beginning, applying FTB will extend the right end of the left clip towards the right over top of the left clip to create the transition. The right clip does not move, nor does anything else.

So many combinations and permutations!

Neat work, John! I'd never tried locking track 1 to prevent unwanted movement on other tracks.

But if you then apply Cut (no fade), the object B retains a fade-in.

The rather surprising best approach I've come up with so far seems to be to lock just track 2! In my limited experiments that appears to prevent movement on all lower tracks. And the overall duration of AB on track 1 is unchanged. Seems counter-intuitive, so I'll wait for someone to describe circumstances in which it doesn't work!

An interesting discussion........quite clever the behaviour with locked tracks and trims.

@johnebaker

Will you use the new FTB or use the old one. I will continue to do it manually with the handles for the reason that I do not shoot with much of a "Handle" and the end trimming I do on all clips ( automatically on import through Program - settings 20Frames @ 50fps) is to get rid of wobble from turning the camera off / away.