Hi, welcome to the Magix forums.

If your imported audio track is at the "mastered radio level" (presumably peaking at 0dBFS?) and your perception is that playback in MEP is peaking at -6dB, by far the easiest way to restore the 0dB peak is to go to the mixer (shortcut M) and raise the fader on the track containing the audio to +6dB. In other words, apply a uniform gain.

However, I think you need to check carefully that the playback level and, eventually the exported audio level, is peaking at -6dB. What are you using to measure this level? Remembering that 0dBFS for 16 bit audio is the "absolute ceiling" beyond which distortion is inevitable, I think you need to be very careful about the amount of any gain amplification you apply.

Jeff

Hi

. . . . Remembering that 0dBFS for 16 bit audio is the "absolute ceiling" . . . .

At 0dBFS that is LOUD with a high probability of inducing overload distortion in the equipment playing the audio - I made that mistake with a few DVD audio tracks

An music record producer friend of mine always told me never to exceed:

• -6 dBFS for radio or TV if they did not specify the sound level requirements.
   
• -9 dbFS to -12 dBFS for disc, CD or video DVD depending on the style of the music.

There is nothing worse than playing a disc and having to reach for the remote or volume control to turn the volume down because the sound engineer upped the levels - unfortunately this is a very regular occurrence for adverts on TV and radio.

For broadcasting the EBU R128 recommendations should be followed - MEP does not yet have this option for normalisation, however VPX does.

HTH

John EB

Hi John,

At 0dBFS that is LOUD with a high probability of inducing overload distortion

Indeed so, but as long as that level represents the momentary, transient "peaks" and clearly NOT the "average" it should not induce distortion. However, it does leave absolutely no margin for error, e.g. for even the briefest of overshoots.

However, in this era of "loudness" wars I broadly agree with the "levels" you quoted above, though my personal preference is to look to about -6dBFS for all recorded audio; then there is "headroom" for those transient peaks.

Jeff

HI Jeff

For my all my video projects I adjust the individual audio at object, or track level, to balance the sound levels to what I want, then use MDynamicEq as a Master FX to equalize and limit the audio to -6 dB.

This is the best setting I have found to ensure the volume is equal to commercial discs and the TV sound levels without the need for grabbing the remote.

John EB

Hi John,

My approach is broadly similar to yours, except for me the final "level control" is most often provided by iZotope Ozone 7 Advanced VST.

In the case of the OP, he states the audio is already a "mastered stereo mix" when it is imported to the timeline; taking that statement at its face value means all he theoretically needs to do is decide what is to be his absolute peak level and then, if necessary, adjust the track to meet that level.

But the whole area of "loudness" is one that even the professionals seem unable to agree upon! That EBU 128 reference level seems to provoke almost as much debate, both for and against it, as almost anything else in Pro Audio at the moment.

Jeff

Hi Jeff

. . . . . all he theoretically needs to do is decide what is to be his absolute peak level and then, if necessary, adjust the track to meet that level . . . .

Agreed the relative levels within the audio file are already be set.

. . . . But the whole area of "loudness" is one that even the professionals seem unable to agree upon . . . . That EBU 128 reference level seems to provoke almost as much debate, both for and against it . . . .

IMHO the worst culprits in the 'against R128' would be TV advertisers who want a bit more 'loudness' to get the attention of people. It is not restricted just to UK TV, having seen many instances of the desire for loudness on German, Swiss, Austrian, Dutch and Australian TV to name but a few.

IMO the EBU R128 makes audio levels a level playing field for everybody - pun intended!

John EB

Hi John,

IMHO the worst culprits in the 'against R128' would be TV advertisers

Oh so true!

Jeff

Hi,

Point 1 in George's initial post - "the audio level is automatically set to around -6db instead at the mastered radio level." This is probably because the parameter under Program settings, Video/Audio tab, Timeline, Audio -6db when importing, is checked. Uncheck it and the audio comes in at 0db, no?

Hi

@ John CB

. . . . Audio -6db when importing, is checked. Uncheck it and the audio comes in at 0db , no? . . . .

Yes, I normalised an audio file that peaked at -6 dB to peak at 0 dB and when imported it into MEP with the option turned off and it correctly shows peaking to 0 dB in the mixer level meters.

I note that the OP has not been back since posting this topic.

John EB

Hi again,

This has been an interesting thread, even without the OP.

For the benefit of others, and the OP if he ever returns:

Original OP point 2: "I have noticed however, when adjusting the audio object levels, there's nothing to show where in the meter the audio is."

When I click on the audio handle on the audio part of the clip, (and then start typing away thinking that I'm in the forum, all kinds of things happen in MEP) I see the audio level on the slider. That is the first place.

Right-click on the audio clip and select Set volume, and there are preset selections from 0 to +/- 3, 6, 12, 20, and turn sound off. So that is quite simple and you know quickly what you have by setting one.

Next is right-click, Decrease volume, and a dialogue box appears to assist with damping of other tracks.

For objects, under Effects, Audio effects, General, there is a Volume slider to be able to "automate" the volume curve of the object, using keyframes and the volume slider. Turn on the curve on the object in the timeline and points can be adjusted there. Note that this is independent of the volume handle position of the audio object.

For tracks, there is the Mixer. Last part of original OP point 2, "You pretty much have to guess by checking the mixer, which itself is not very accurate, especially for critical ceiling levels," the db readout is at the bottom of the channel, to the left of the track number, so you can easily see the setting value.

Does that pretty much cover the possibilities of seeing and adjusting the db settings?

To clarify, the sliders are all relative levels from the original. Is this correct?

I noticed that in VPX, there is a peak meter at the upper right of the timeline, whereas there is none in MEP2016P. So, in VPX, one can see the levels during playback without having the mixer open.

Hello,

Thanks all for replying, there are certainly some good points which I plan to check out as soon as I get the chance.

Let me reiterate, the audio is a MASTERED original song and the video is a Music Video, primarily for YouTube.  I want the mastered levels with a limiter peak level of -0.3db to be retained since it's a stand-alone music video.  Many online Video sites automatically limit the audio portion of video files and others don't, but in any case it doesn't matter, I want to allow THEM to determine that for their own content, as a producer, I want my mastered audio to remain as mastered in the music video.

This is an interesting topic because online video levels are all over the place with no clear standards such as traditional "radio levels" which were instituted to create a consistent audio experience for most listening devices.  I find however that most online videos are a composite of mastered (VERY LOUD) and un-mastered (VERY LOW) audio levels, even within the same video. Commercials have blasting over-processed spots, while speech content have un-processed raw audio levels forcing you to adjust the volume several times within the same video content.

In any case, using the mixer to adjust to some obscure point in the audio ceiling is out of the question since it's impossible to achieve blindly.  Ideally, there should be numeric meters visible when moving the audio object levels in the timeline.  As you keep sliding the object level up, there is no indicator of when you've broken the ceiling other than the audible distortion, or the red fields in the mixer which are not accurate.  I want to see numbers, at least 0.  I will check out "browj2's" suggestions (thanks), one of those will do the trick I'm sure, and get back to this discussion.

George

An music record producer friend of mine always told me never to exceed:

• -6 dBFS for radio or TV if they did not specify the sound level requirements.
   
• -9 dbFS to -12 dBFS for disc, CD or video DVD depending on the style of the music.

John,

The -6 dB for radio is because Radio stations apply a HUGE amount of dynamics to their playlist and they need plenty of room for that.

The -9 db for CD is hard to believe since most CD's pump the volume pretty hard.  Are you sure he didn't mean a pre-mastered mix down?

Indeed so, but as long as that level represents the momentary, transient "peaks" and clearly NOT the "average" it should not induce distortion. However, it does leave absolutely no margin for error, e.g. for even the briefest of overshoots.

Jeff

Of course, the -0.3db IS the transient peaks, the rest is rather subjective depending of the amount of compression and limiting applied through-out the production and mastering.

Hi George

. . . . the video is a Music Video, primarily for YouTube . . . .

Youtube will alter your audio - loudness normalisation is applied and different video resolutions are created for different Internet connection speeds - this can go as low as 240p

. . . . there should be numeric meters visible when moving the audio object levels in the timeline.  As you keep sliding the object level up, there is no indicator of when you've broken the ceiling other than the audible distortion, or the red fields in the mixer which are not accurate. . . . .

Open the mixer, under the Master volume control there are two digital displays (L + R) for setting a more accurate level, when you play the timeline 2 more appear above them showing a more precise peak level then the meters can.

I have tested MEP with a test standard 1kHz 0 dBFS audio and found the readings to be - 0.2 dB below 0 dB.

HTH

John EB

Hi George,

John EB, please correct me if I get this wrong.

All of the sliders are relative. The sliders do not mean that the loudest sound is at whatever the slider is set to. If you raise a slider, then the associated object, track or project (master) will increase in level by that amount, that is, relative to what it was before. If your imported audio is at broadcast level, like you say, then if you touch nothing, the export should be the same as what was imported.

Look back at your first post and then my comments to your points.

If you are adding audio to the project, then you will have to balance the new audio with the old. This is only done by listening during mixing and to a certain extent, by watching the displays. But, don't touch the original; balance the new with the original.

The first thing to do with new audio, is to normalize it. Assuming that there is no clipping in the original, normalization brings the loudest sound up to 0db so that there is no clipping. After that, it is up to you and your ears to balance it with other audio.

As John EB pointed out, MEP has only 1 type of normalize command, whereas VPX has EBU R128, which is a transceiver standard that normalizes the audio signal to -23 LUFS (loudness units relative to the digital full level). Unlike normalizing to the maximum level, this provides enough upward space for temporarily loud signals.
This is used, for example, by cinema productions and classical recordings.

If you have new audio mixed with existing, and you want the new audio to be adjusted as perfectly as the existing broadcast audio, you need to do it in a better program. Samplitude, for example, allows normalizing to a percentage of the max.

Here is some of the text from the Samplitude manual: "Maximum true peak: The maximum value of the audio signal during continual measurement on the timeline. When converting digital to analog signals level peaks could happen that were not displayed before. That's why the displayed peak level of a True Peak Meter is typically higher than that of a usual digital (QPPM - Quasi Peak Program Meter). The R128 standard allows a maximum True Peak value of -1dBTP."

The combination of Program Loudness, Loudness Range and Maximum true peak allows more dynamic mixes without affecting the loudness.

Samplitude Pro X3 Suite includes a Loudness Meter Compact R128 and more.

But, it's still a balancing act. You can set the maximum to peak at a certain level, but that doesn't mean that the mix sounds good.

Or something like that.

+johnebaker    

I am aware of Youtube's normalization and encoding, Vimeo also has their own, they will do it either way, I just want to have the option for future control.  

+browj2 

Thanks, "Right-click on the audio clip and select Set volume" did the trick.  I do see the numbers in the mixer now, but as you said earlier, levels are relative.

Recording and mixing is done in Cubase 8 and mastering is done in Ozone 7 which is equipped with TPL.  I like my mixes to have conservative levels to preserve transients and retain rhythmic punch, although for certain applications I do like to push the ceiling for energy.  I don't really like doing ANY processing in MEP and prefer that it leave the audio I spend hours tweaking alone, with the exception of course of level mixing various audio sources in the video timeline via curves.  This is actually the way I like to mix in Cubase as well, for some reason my mind works in automation. 

Thanks again for the tips.

George                                                

Hi John CB

. . . . All of the sliders are relative . . . .

The audio levels are cut or boosted by the amount set relative to the imported audio level. If audio comes in at 0dB then with no adjustments it should go out at 0 dB.

. . . . The first thing to do with new audio, is to normalize it. Assuming that there is no clipping in the original, normalization brings the loudest sound up to 0db so that there is no clipping . . . .

Not necessarily, if the original has a poor signal to noise ratio the noise can be exaggerated without further processing, Some audio editing programs allow the audio to be normalised to specific, or user adjustable, levels.

. . . . . But, it's still a balancing act. You can set the maximum to peak at a certain level, but that doesn't mean that the mix sounds good . . . . .

Most definitely, personal preference also plays a large part eg personally I work on the principle that:

1. For DVD and BD discs - the sound level matches that of commercial discs so I do not have to reach for the remote control.
    
2. Balancing audio to what sounds good and realistic, eg creating a new sound track to replace the poor original, eg engine sounds, background sounds, wind and rain etc.

The 'fly in the ointment' to all this is when there is down stream processing over which you have no control, eg Youtube conversions.

John EB

John,

"...The 'fly in the ointment' to all this is when there is down stream processing over which you have no control, eg Youtube conversions."

YouTube is usually only interested in volume reduction and compression codecs.  Its basically an mp3 codec for the audio which is OK for what it is.

As I said before, I don't think audio editing of any kind is a good idea in Movie Edit Pro, it's always best to use dedicated audio processors for that.  Even with movie clips, I export the audio of the video track and master it in Ozone, then drop it again in the timeline.

George,

What, may I ask, are you doing in Ozone with the audio from video, and how?

I often send out my audio to Magix Audio & Music Lab Premium and do my touchups there, with mixed results. AML has a lot of tools to play with and is similar to Ozone, but on a much lower level. If I need more, I can go to Samplitude Pro X3 Suite and its Cleaning & Restoration Lab (similar to AML but with more parameters). However, AML does not have EBU R128, unfortunately, but it can be done in VPX. The other thing is, mixing, for the most part, gets done in MEP/VPX, so it's only the mixed version that needs/gets treatment, or are you sending the tracks out separately for mixing?

MEP/VPX can directly link to the MusicEditor 3 or AML interfaces from within the program. See this thread.

John EB and I both use Melda MDynamicEQ within MEP/VPX and other VST's can be used. The only additional thing that I would like to have in VPX is Magix' essentialFX VocalStrip, which takes care of HP filter, Gate, deEsser, Compression and Tone in one interface. Remember that Magix is also an audio company (in fact, I think that audio is first, video second), so the audio possibilities in MEP/VPX are quite good.

browj2

I have never used MEP, although I might try out the free version.  Ozone is an all-in-one mastering module, either stand alone or as a VST.  By ALL, I mean the usual mastering stuff like EQ, Dynamics, Limiter (they call it maximizer), Imager, Exciter, Dynamic EQ, Post EQ and Vintage Limiter.  I know there are better industry standard mastering plugins out there but I'm not a dedicated mastering engineer, I don't trust my old ears to critical projects.  Ozone has a great transparent sound and is very soft on application. 

The Audio file gets treated mainly with dynamics and sometimes with noise reduction.  For noise reduction I use Aconas Acoustica which has a very good noise reduction algorithm.  The rest is just getting the video audio at the right level without messing it up.

Years ago, I use to use a free set of audio processors called digitalfishphones. I got very good results from them even though they were free, especially the de-esser.  I think the developer, Sascha Eversmeier eventually went to work for "Magix" and is probably responsible for the development of allot of their stuff.

I stay mostly in the audio production realm with occasional video editing here and there.

Hi George,

Thanks for the feedback and insight.

Yes, Sacha Eversmeier was the one responsible for many of the Magix effects including the essentialFX suite, I believe. He no longer works for Magix but keeps in touch on the Samplitude forum.

Here is a link to the help for essentialFX suite. Strangely, the Limiter is not on the list, but I have a manual with it included, and I have the Limiter. Unfortunately, none of these work in MEP or VXP unless one pays extra.

Depending on what your needs are, you may want to consider VPX instead of MEP. Or if you do go for MEP, get at least the Plus version.

Hi

No one has mentioned the Mastering Suite and Mastering effects available in MEP / VPX. Are there not some of the advanced tools you are referring to that could be used within the Magix programs?

Peter