Hi Terry

It would be interesting to see the Media info on the respective Proxy files generated. Are they identical in each case?

From the MI you have provided it shows that the Cube files are far more compressed than the Ixus files, so creating low compression proxies (as Walter has mentioned) would create larger files relative to the source than would the Ixus. Going from a format that is more / less compressed than the target will always take longer also eg Ixus low comp. to Magix MXV low comp = less processing therefore quicker.

Another reason might be the difference in frame rate conversion required for the 25fps project . The 23.97fps may just be sped up slightly whereas the 29.97 would require more complex telecine 3:2 pulldown processing.

Also, be aware that that activating proxies will convert all the material in the project folder, not just the clips you drag to the timeline. 

You could also experiment with different Proxy creation settings = Alt+R and see if the others work better

Peter

Hi Peter

Hi Terry

It would be interesting to see the Media info on the respective Proxy files generated. Are they identical in each case?

I'd tried that but neither MediaInfo nor GSpot support MXV file types.

A 15 MB 29.97 fps  file called CUBE.MOV, duration 15.3 s, generated a 40 MB proxy MXV.

A 15 MB 23.98 fps file called IXUS.MOV, duration 3.6 s, generated a 5.8 MB proxy MXV.

Both were 1920 x 1080.

From the MI you have provided it shows that the Cube files are far more compressed than the Ixus files, so creating low compression proxies (as Walter has mentioned) would create larger files relative to the source than would the Ixus. Going from a format that is more / less compressed than the target will always take longer also eg Ixus low comp. to Magix MXV low comp = less processing therefore quicker.

Another reason might be the difference in frame rate conversion required for the 25fps project . The 23.97fps may just be sped up slightly whereas the 29.97 would require more complex telecine 3:2 pulldown processing.

Thanks, it must all be down to the compression factor then. I had tested the fps optins but found no difference.

Also, be aware that that activating proxies will convert all the material in the project folder, not just the clips you drag to the timeline. 

Sorry, I don't follow, so I reckon I must have misunderstood what you meant. For each file on the timeline an associated proxy file is created in the folder from which that file was imported. Proxy files don't get generated for 'all the material in the project folder'. Or do you mean just the associated small H0 and HDP files? And, of course,  the imported files can come from any folder, not just the current 'project' folder, and that's where the proxies are saved.

Hi Terry

.. . . . A 15 MB 29.97 fps  file called CUBE.MOV, duration 15.3 s, generated a 40 MB proxy MXV.

A 15 MB 23.98 fps file called IXUS.MOV, duration 3.6 s, generated a 5.8 MB proxy MXV.

Both were 1920 x 1080. . . . .

But are they the same framerate?

Here are the settings I use:

Proxies generated are 1/4 size ie 960 x 540px.

John

Hi Terry

.. . . . A 15 MB 29.97 fps  file called CUBE.MOV, duration 15.3 s, generated a 40 MB proxy MXV.

A 15 MB 23.98 fps file called IXUS.MOV, duration 3.6 s, generated a 5.8 MB proxy MXV.

Both were 1920 x 1080. . . . .

But are they the same framerate?

Framerates given above!

Here are the settings I use:

Same as mine.

Proxies generated are 1/4 size ie 960 x 540px.

MOV files? From what source?

Did you see my original post and MediaInfo examples, plus replies from Peter and Walter about compression?

To summarise so far: my IXUS MOV proxies are ½ size of originals, but my CUBE proxies are about 2½ x originals. Apparent explanation: the CUBE files are much more compressed, so the proxies are much larger. Which I find hard to grasp, as I thought the whole point of this feature was to make them smaller, so that playback would not require so much CPU resource. This is first time I've found files that apparently break the feature.

So unfortunately it looks as if I'll have to convert them first in future.

(BTW, I've just updated SUPER 2008 to the latest 2014 version. I have a reliable link if you want to PM/email me, and my recommendation is to disconnect your internet link directly after downlaoding the setup file, to avoid all possibility of the sort of malware issue you experienced.)

Hi Terry

. . . . Framerates given above! . . .

Aaaaagh - I meant Bitrate   think last nights mountain walk got to me !

. . . . I thought the whole point of this feature was to make them smaller, so that playback would not require so much CPU resource . . .

The feature is to make them require less processor time decompressing them during preview so you get smoother playback - in order to do this the file sizes will be bigger ie less compressed.

Re Super - thnks for the offer Terry however I now use Nero Recode or AVS Video Converter when necessary.

John

Hi Terry

A 15 MB 29.97 fps  file called CUBE.MOV, duration 15.3 s, generated a 40 MB proxy MXV.

A 15 MB 23.98 fps file called IXUS.MOV, duration 3.6 s, generated a 5.8 MB proxy MXV.

This shows even more clearly the reason for the difference. One file contains 15.3 x 29.97fr = 459 frames and the other 3.6 x 23.98fr = 86 frames, so I think the size of the proxies are about right.

'all the material in the project folder'

Sorry, I did not test that. That came from P194 of the PDF manual.

I do not use proxies at all as I find the Blue flash symbol gives me enough performance boost with the Reduce resolution and Reduce frame rate options. Not sure if you are aware but you can also improve playback performance by temporarily changing your HD project to a lesser res. like SD DVD for the edit and then changing back to HD before export. Best to create the titles in HD mode though as the title editor is res. dependent as we have discussed in the past.

Peter

Hi Terry

A 15 MB 29.97 fps  file called CUBE.MOV, duration 15.3 s, generated a 40 MB proxy MXV.

A 15 MB 23.98 fps file called IXUS.MOV, duration 3.6 s, generated a 5.8 MB proxy MXV.

This shows even more clearly the reason for the difference. One file contains 15.3 x 29.97fr = 459 frames and the other 3.6 x 23.98fr = 86 frames, so I think the size of the proxies are about right.

Thanks Peter.

'all the material in the project folder'

Sorry, I did not test that. That came from P194 of the PDF manual.

I see what you mean.

Motto: Don't believe everything you read in Magix manuals!

"When this option is activated, proxy files will automatically be created for all video
files imported to the arranger or the project folder"

That last part is plainly nonsense. Maybe 'or' was a typo for 'from'? (Although that would be misleading too, as imports can be from any folder.)

I do not use proxies at all as I find the Blue flash symbol gives me enough performance boost with the Reduce resolution and Reduce frame rate options.

I have those set too. In general (and certainly In this case) it makes no difference here. The clip remains jerky on playback.

I've uploaded it in case anyone cares to try it on a higher performing PC to mine.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vr8olimj4z3866x/CUBE.MOV?dl=0

Not sure if you are aware but you can also improve playback performance by temporarily changing your HD project to a lesser res. like SD DVD for the edit and then changing back to HD before export.

Never tried that but just experimented with no apparent difference. I opened a new project, changed it to from my usual 1920x1080 25fps to 720x576 25fps and dragged in CUBE.MOV. As usual I did not Adjust. Playback remained jerky. I repeated that, this time accepting Adjust, with same result.

Best to create the titles in HD mode though as the title editor is res. dependent as we have discussed in the past.

Leaving aside the evidence above that it apparently doesn't universally improve playback anyway, wouldn't that require repeatedly changing settings to add captions as you proceed? Or do you add all of them at a later stage, which I would find impractical?

--------------------

What I still can't get my mind around is why the proxy is so much larger than the original? Doesn't that imply a fundamental flaw in the proxy generating method? Shoudn't the lower resolution of the proxy (which I understand is the whole reason for the conversion) compensate for the greater number of frames?

Hi Terry.

I can't directly answer your question about the apparent expansion in file size when using proxies, though I think Peter is right when he comments on the degree of compression being the most relevant factor.

However, I did download the clip you posted, opened it in VPX5 (without selecting to automatically create proxies) on the timeline, did not allow the project to "adjust" for the difference in framerate and, at full playback resolution, it stuttered!  However, activating the lightning symbol (shortcut P) as Peter said, allowed the short extract to play without problem.

My computer specs are in  my signature, I am not using a particularly high-end set-up, certainly by today's standards!

HTH and have a great Christmas!

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

My ageing PC is some way behind yours in spec, but your reply prompted me to try again, and I found something very interesting.

First, note that in my case MEP 2014 loads with the lightning flash already selected. It appears to come up in the state you left it, and I've always had it enabled. (BTW, why would anyone want to disable it? What downsides?)

I ran CUBE.MOV and, just as before, it was jerky. Then I disabled and re-enabled it. The file then played smoothly!

So, I have my fingers crossed that, thanks to Peter and you, I can now play future files of this type without resorting to either large proxy files or prior conversion.

I'd be interested to know if you get the same, i.e. closing VPX5 with the lightning flash eneabled and playing the file imediately after restarting.

Same for any MEP users.

--------------------

Happy Christmas to you too.

Hi Terry

. . . . Shoudn't the lower resolution of the proxy (which I understand is the whole reason for the conversion) compensate for the greater number of frames? . . . .

I am puzzled by this one - I am getting no increase in the number of frames, the proxies have the same number of frames as the originals from which they are created.

The CUBE video plays smoothly on my i5 laptop with the 'Blue flash' turned off.

John

@Jeff,

The letter "P" in the Magix Music programs, Music Maker, Music Studio, opens the Program Settings, whereas in MEP and VPX, "Y" does this. I have often mistakenly pressed on "P" in MEP. Nothing happened so I pressed "Y." I never did look up what "P" was for until I saw your message. Now I know. However, I haven't noticed that the lightning flash icon has any effect on playback; I"ll have to test and watch.

Now I have to look up "Y" in Music Maker and Studio to see what I've been doing there.

Thanks for mentioning the letter "P."

To all, have a Merry Christmas, and unless you're in the tropics, a white Christmas!

@Jeff,

The letter "P" in the Magix Music programs, Music Maker, Music Studio, opens the Program Settings, whereas in MEP and VPX, "Y" does this. I have often mistakenly pressed on "P" in MEP. Nothing happened so I pressed "Y." I never did look up what "P" was for until I saw your message. Now I know. However, I haven't noticed that the lightning flash icon has any effect on playback; I"ll have to test and watch.

Now I have to look up "Y" in Music Maker and Studio to see what I've been doing there.

Thanks for mentioning the letter "P."

To all, have a Merry Christmas, and unless you're in the tropics, a white Christmas!

Hi John.

I think the "effectiveness" of "P" (in VPX/MEP) depends very much on the choice(s) the user makes from the dropdown menu alongside the lightining flash.  Certainly, for me with HD or AVCHD footage selecting "Reduce resolution" and "Reduce frame rate" mean virtually flawless playback.

(One of the other options refers to "deactivating plug-ins", ref. your earlier posts about Neat Video and its memory usage.)

@Terry, I will try and test your hypothesis tomorrow.  Just going out for a meal!

Jeff

Hi Terry

First, note that in my case MEP 2014 loads with the lightning flash already selected. It appears to come up in the state you left it, and I've always had it enabled. (BTW, why would anyone want to disable it? What downsides?)

Yes it retains the state of the program not the project. Same with other Program settings like "Automatic interlace". The downside is that depending on the effect you have applied, you will find that some times the resolution reduces too much and you would like to se the picture at full res., even if it is static or jerky. The degree of reduction in res. is dynamic depending on the load that the material or effect is putting on the CPU..

I have not experienced a glitch with the activation not working but have certainly seen some Program setting not "stick" over the years.

Re changing the project settings:-

Leaving aside the evidence above that it apparently doesn't universally improve playback anyway, wouldn't that require repeatedly changing settings to add captions as you proceed? Or do you add all of them at a later stage, which I would find impractical?

It is not universal but it was invaluable in earlier versions o MEP with 1080 50P material. Also I tend to add graphics at the end.

What I still can't get my mind around is why the proxy is so much larger than the original? Doesn't that imply a fundamental flaw in the proxy generating method? Shoudn't the lower resolution of the proxy (which I understand is the whole reason for the conversion) compensate for the greater number of frames?

As John EB explained early in the thread - it is the lower compression of the proxies that gives most of the benefit because  very compressed (AVC Mpeg4) material requires heavy CPU processing to decompress each frame in order to play back, compared to Low compression MXV. The "Best performance for HD" setting probably maintains the HD resolution but creates huge uncompressed proxy files which play more smoothly.

@John

I am puzzled by this one - I am getting no increase in the number of frames, the proxies have the same number of frames as the originals from which they are created.

The point here is that Terry was comparing 2 files that started out the same size in MB but one was a longer duration clip containing 5 1/2 times more  highly compressed frames (Video and Audio) which when decompressed became 6 x larger.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Thanks, re-reading Jonh EB's earlier explanation together with yours I think I've finally understood it!

I'll experiment further with the lightning tool. I'm not sure my earlier optimism about toggling it in a fesh session is warranted.

@John CB, @Jeff

In MEP 2014 here, pressing P brings up Program Settings (always to the Playback tab). Y brings it up to the last tab displayed.

Does anyone know in what section of Files > Settings > Keyboard shortcut the lightning tool can be found please? I haven't found it so far. There are other undocumented shortcuts so perhaps this is another.

Hi Terry,

P is under Playback functions. If you look in the F1 file under Keyboard shortcuts, Playback functions is first on the list, and then P (Activate smooth playback for preview) is last.

An interesting thread! This month is a peak season for the sort of work I do (4 camera, 1080i, long single clip takes of between 1 and 2 hours), and frankly I've been getting a bit frustrated at the struggle MEP 2015 Plus seems to have been having running its 4 multi-cam mode. My PC is an i5 quad core of middling speed.

I'm a relatively new user (3 months or so) and from the start I just assumed that MEP would probably run smoother if I used proxies. Because my output tends still to be DVD, I used the "proxy settings for DVD" suggested in the Magix set-up, giving proxy sizes between about 16 to 25 GBs). I found this process to be somewhat inconsistent; I had some proxies that failed to make themselves correctly inside Magix (but were OK if I made them by hand to the same spec using other software). And the results using the proxies were disappointing - stuttery to the point of being useless.

So in recent days I have done some specific experiments which have been illuminating. Firstly I used "Parkdale Speed Test" to measure typical read/write speeds for the HDD I have been using for data, and learnt that at 50 MB/s write and 80 MB/s read these are clearly no longer state of the art. So I may be searching the January Sales listings with interest.

But the most interesting effect, now tested out on two or three jobs, is that if I leave the virgin masters in 1080i and don't make proxies, the 4 multi-cam mode in MEP 2015 Plus works perfectly. All four preview screens, and the target screen, and sound all stream without any discomfort at all making full use of a 1920x1080 monitor. I will need to do more serious testing, but for me this has been a most unexpected, unintuitive and pleasant discovery - and of course I save hours of proxy building!

Does anyone have any data please on what MEP 2015 requires of its HDDs for optimum data transfer? Without specific data, choosing the optimum disc characteristics is going to be a matter of luck to a great extent.....

Hi Recycler

You raise an good point about disc throughput. With less compression the proxy will put less load on the CPU to preview, but will increase the disc throughput because of a higher datarate. This could well be stretching you current discs if you are previewing 4 files simultaneously. Having said that, the fact that you are using the "Best for DVD" option should mean that the proxies are created at DVD compression, if it is infact true that the files can then be used to create a DVD without further processing as claimed by Magix. DVD Mpegs are relatively compressed with a fairly low datarate of less than 10Mbps.

No one could tell you what MEP requires of it's HDD's but it would certainly not be designed for anything more special than a Good Sata2 7200rpm drive which should be able to reach a read speed of 120MBytes/sec (=1000Mbits/sec).

BTW I see a new patch is out for MEP2015 that claims to have fixed some issue with "Direct Sound" (which can make playback choppy).

Peter

Hi Terry

In my 2014 the shortcut shows as P if you hover over the Blue flash button......and P toggles Smooth playback on and off.

Peter