@CarpentersMate

Greetings Mike,

Searching the forum with "mov file mep2016" has thrown up quite a few comments about Mov files and MEP 2016 the gist of which is you need Quicktime as Ray has said.

Any re-installation of Windows seems to lose the Quicktime function. I had to re-install Quicktime after a catastrophic system crash around this time last year.

The only version I could find was 7.79 which if memory serves me, I think I downloaded from Videohelp.com

AndyW

@me_again @CarpentersMate

Get it directly from Apple. QutickTime for Windows.

Ray.

@CarpentersMate

Hi Mike

. . . . export to a 'Quick Time Movie' (using advanced drop down setting H.264), . . .

Are you using the Export movie, Video as Quicktime preset?

By default (IIRC) the encoding format should be h.264 in a MOV container file format.

As far as FCP goes - for the most part MOV and MP4 container files are interchangeable - MP4 standard was derived from the MOV specs, the only difference is the file type, internally the video is encoded the same, when using h.264, irrespective of the container file format. The only difference is in the audio encoding format.

. . . . Windows doesn't seem to cope with playing all mov. files since Apple stopped providing updated codecs. . . . .

The problem with MOV files in a Windows, and MEP, environment when both rely on Quicktime to do the decoding is due to 2 other encoding formats which are 'standard' in an Apple environment.

in addition to the h.264 encoding there are two specific, internally encoded, formats of MOV file, for which Quicktime is essential for importing, ie

Format profile                           : QuickTime
Codec ID                                 : qt   2005.03 (qt  )

Writing library                          : Apple QuickTime

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : JPEG
Codec ID                                 : jpeg

and the PNG format/codec id version

John EB

@CubeAce

Get it directly from Apple. QutickTime for Windows.if i I remember about getting it direct from Apple is that it's a bit of a faff because you have to supply an email so that they can email you a download link.

If I remember correctly it's a bit of a faff getting it direct from Apple. They want an email address so that they can send a download link

I just don't see why that should be which is why I use Videohelp.com that's a direct download.

Apple may have changed this of course.

AndyW

@me_again

Hi Andy.

No, it's just a click the download link. No faff.

I know Mike is not too happy with third party websites.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Greetings Ray, just tried that and this is what I get

All that does is take me to my email app to send the page link.

AndyW

@me_again

Hi Andy.

Odd. I get the direct download.

Ray.

@me_again

Hi Andy

It looks like you are using a mobile phone browser which redirects to the email link option you are getting as Quicktime is not for a mobile device.

I get the direct download link from the link @CubeAce provided when using a computer based browser.

John EB

@johnebaker @CubeAce

Aah. obviously too much Christmas cheer and not enough water. Apologies.

AndyW

Thank you for all the replies ...

Yes I have the latest QT Player and I agree it's strange they've dropped updates considering the importance it still has with Apple Software & Applications ...?

Let me acknowledge and appreciate past advice from friends: John, Jeff, Ray, Alwyn and others regarding FCP & MEP capture files. It's true (at least in my case) FCP capture files are in fact DV/DVCPRO NTSC. From John: "there is no necessity to consider conversion to other formats, FCP should be able to handle the AVI files" Thank you John and happily agreed - I'd just like to find out why there's a problem with QT Exports?

Test Results: Importing MEP 2016 AVI capture files into FCP is fine with render neccessary. MEP 2016 'DV AVI' export is also compatible and no render necessary. I would also consider MEP 2016 export to 'Quick Time Movie DV/DVCPRO NTSC' however now I only see a ratio of 3:2 not '4:3'? And the export progress window never appears? There's gotta be a reason? I can however export to DV AVI and still get 4:3

This mysterious glitch when attempting Quick Time Movie DV/DVCPRO NTSC (or) H.264 export using presets and advanced settings, the export progress window never appears? (see in chronological order below)

Perhaps missing data in 'Limit Data Rate' ?

To repeat: AVI (and) DV AVI exports are successful and compatible with FCP. However Quick Time Movie exports using presets and advanced settings (at the moment) can not be completed ...?

Thank you for your patience ...

Mike

@CarpentersMate

Hi Mike

. . . . t's strange they've dropped updates considering the importance it still has with Apple Software & Applications ...? . . . .

Catalina killed off QT, and a 64 bit version has not been developed. I suspect that the MOV JPEG and PNG encoded formats are now somewhat irrelevant as h.264 is the most universal encoding format for video and does not need QT for decoding, AFAICS h.264 decoding it is built into the OS.

In the export settings for Quicktime movie - what does the MPEG-4 option (default) give you after exporting and analysing with MediaInfo?

John EB

@CarpentersMate @johnebaker

Hi Mike.

Apple never wanted to share information about their codecs or want any of their formats available to competitors.

They branded themselves as the platform for creatives and wanted that niche where they could charge premium prices and be the best for video and graphic reproduction. For a brief time when they lost and were continuing to lose market share to the PC and Microsoft with the improvements in both CPUs and third party graphics cards come out with QuickTime for Windows as well as a Pro version with the idea of if people were able to swap file from one machine to another it may make more PC users switch to Macs.

As market share once again grew with the advent of the iPhone and iPad etc and owning an Apple product became seen as more of a status symbol, they went back to their old practices of producing new codecs and no PC support by Dropping QuickTime for Windows.

At least that is how I see it.

Apple will have a completely different view and would prefer to have complete control over both Hardware and software and thus reduce or even try to eliminate possible hardware / software conflicts and do not need third party machines with components from a wide variety of manufacturers not being specifically attuned to their software or codecs and the subsequent complaints that would cause. Especially as they would have had no profit from the sale of such parts or say in their construction.

So, I have no such footage in that ratio but I could make a project with those ratios and frame rates and import clips that looks odd as my footage gets squished.

I'm not quite sure about your sentence.

I would also consider MEP 2016 export to 'Quick Time Movie DV/DVCPRO NTSC' however now I only see a ratio of 3:2 not '4:3'? And the export progress window never appears? There's gotta be a reason?

Do you mean this?

All I can say is I get the loading symbol and a blue progress line at the base of the program and it took a good 10 seconds before the export box appeared and it was using both GPUs like crazy while waiting.

No matter how I try to export a video and see the main concept say it will export in 3:2 all exports end up showing in 4:3.

MediaInfo confirms the export has a 3:2 export ratio.

Ray.

@CarpentersMate @johnebaker @me_again

Hi Mike.

Success with the main concept codec using the Quick Time Movie DV/DVCPRO NTSC setting.

Windows can't 'See' or play the resulting file as such and has to be played in VLC media player.

The MediaInfo file data is as follows.

General
Complete name                            : H:\VPX Export Folder\Movie 2021-12-27.mov
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : QuickTime
Codec ID                                 : qt   2005.03 (qt  )
File size                                : 315 MiB
Duration                                 : 1 min 29 s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Constant
Overall bit rate                         : 29.5 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2021-12-27 12:07:49
Tagged date                              : UTC 2021-12-27 12:07:50
Writing library                          : Apple QuickTime

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : DV
Codec ID                                 : dvc
Duration                                 : 1 min 29 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 24.4 Mb/s
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Clean aperture width                     : 704 pixels
Height                                   : 480 pixels
Clean aperture height                    : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
Original display aspect ratio            : 4:3
Clean aperture display aspect ratio      : 4:3
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 30.000 FPS
Original frame rate                      : 29.970 (29970/1000) FPS
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:1:1
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan type, store method                  : Interleaved fields
Scan order                               : Bottom Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 2.355
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00;00
Time code source                         : Subcode time code
Stream size                              : 260 MiB (83%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2021-12-27 12:04:16
Tagged date                              : UTC 2021-12-27 12:07:50
Color primaries                          : BT.601 NTSC
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.601

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : ADPCM
Format profile                           : A-Law
Codec ID                                 : alaw
Duration                                 : 1 min 29 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 352.8 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 44.1 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 3.77 MiB (1%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2021-12-27 12:04:16
Tagged date                              : UTC 2021-12-27 12:07:50

Any discrepancies from the norm in the data could be down to my settings.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

. . . . Any discrepancies from the norm in the data could be down to my settings. . . . .

Nope, it is a fundamental 'workaround' for widescreen DV that is getting in the way, it is 16:9 inside a 4:3 container - when decoded there is a flag in the video header that tells the decoder to stretch the pixels horizontally so they are rectangular not square and thus create the widescreen you see.

Without the 'stretch' flag your videos will appear squashed horizontally in a player and if you import them back into an editor you have to 'stretch' the image to get it back to how it was ie 16:9.

John EB

@johnebaker

Hi John.

There is a slight difference in frame rate as well which was my fault.

Ray.

Hi Ray - Hi John

Ray you mentioned:
"Apple products became more of a status symbol, they went back to their old practices of producing new codecs and no PC support by Dropping QuickTime for Windows". Sadly I agree (although I still enjoy the 'old' FCP), as well as MEP ..

With regard to QT MEP 2016 Plus H.264 and DV/DVCPRO NTSC exports (and the odd ratio 3:2):

Ray you also mentioned:
"I get the loading symbol and a blue progress line at the base of the program. No matter how I try to export a video and see the main concept say it will export in 3:2"

I see the same blue progress line as well. In any event, trying to export to QT H.264 (or) QT DV/DVCPRO NTSC, I also can't see 4:3 in the editor or player. FCP 'still' sees a 'Squish Job.' But why couldn't I get an exported MEP file, (only a single frame)? Perhaps because I was converting 'Interlaced' so I switched to 'Progressive' (and) removed the check mark in Key Frames for H.264 then finally got an exported file. *But again (both files) have that 3:2 ratio. And BTW (I might be wrong), but I seem to prefer 'QT' as more of a player 'standard' ?

I still might be missing some data in these settings? I changed setting from 'Interlaced' to 'Progressive' *BTW These parameters are very similar to FCP when I was exporting a project for iDVD or DVD Pro.

>>>>DV/DVCPRO NTSC>>>>>>>DV/DVCPRO NTSC >>>>>>>> NTSC H.264

With regard to that odd 3:2 ratio, John's Confirmation: "Without the 'stretch' flag your videos will appear squashed horizontally in a player and if you import them back into an editor you have to 'stretch' the image to get it back"

Stretching could degrade precious pixels and general appearance of an 'SD' file. But I still have the option of AVI (or) DV AVI export in 4:3 and (at this point) there are 'some' advantages to using MEP's tools before importing back into FCP. The issue for me is utilize 'equipment on hand.' I also look forward to discussion of 'upscale applications' in future threads and remain hopeful.

Summing things up: My personal (situation): Since AVI is still reliable, the reason for familiarizing QT DV/DVCPRO NTSC (and) QT H.264 export, is to expand knowledge/experience and prepare (CYA) for my ole' compadres on the Apple FCP forum. These guys swear by QT and H.264. And they're still handing out condescending lectures neglecting to answer an original question or offering simple 'work arounds.' I find it much more comfortable 'here' and benefit from patient valuable discussion.

Thanks Again!
Mike

@CarpentersMate

Hi Mike

. . . . Stretching could degrade precious pixels and general appearance of an 'SD' file.  . . .

There is little you can do about that as this is the 'standard' for DV/DVD widescreen, the pixels are rectangular not square as in virtually all other true 16:9 widescreen formats.

. . . . for my ole' compadres on the Apple FCP forum. These guys swear by QT and H.264.  . . . .

Unfortunately they have little choice in the matter. As @CubeAce has alluded to, once you are in the Apple world, you have to do things the 'Apple way', unfortunately this is not always in the users best interest or wallet.

G5's were superb machines in their time, well made, totally integrated components and cool looking as well - the only problems with them were they were difficult to work on without special tools, and the hernia inducing weight about 45lbs/20kg.

John EB

@CarpentersMate @johnebaker @me_again

Hi Mike.

I'm afraid I'm not in your world of having to create files from old screen ratios or from trying to grab video from analog sources so my experiment was to grab one of my own files and change it's screen ratio within MEP. This obviously showed as a squished version of one of my files which would not have been interlaced to begin with but purely to see if I could get the aspect ratio you wanted to export in a file format you may have been able to use. As such I can't comment on your interlaced to progressive choice or understand any possible consequence. I'm hoping there is no consequence and can't think of a reason at this point as to why there should be one. You will just have to see what the result is like unless Al has any insight into such matters.

As far as the quality settings are concerned. As long as the files produced still allow you to complete a given amount of disc space per project I would always go for least compression, IE, Best. The end result may not look a lot different from the preset but for me personally I prefer to hedge my bets. That is better than regretting later.

In my personal view it has never been wise to work between two competing platforms as the idealism between the two companies are diametrically opposed. Microsoft has always been about enabling choice of components as initially they didn't build their own machines and Apple have always worked on the principle of being in total control of the quality of components so it would be easier to program for specific characteristics of the components within the build of their machines. But what is done is done and I'm sure we will do our best to help you in your endeavor to produce quality items of historical value.

Ray.

@CarpentersMate, @CubeAce

Hi Mike, Ray

I installed MEP 2016 and QT on my laptop last night and have been testing various exports.

The DV/DVCPRO NTSC settings are consistently reliable.

The h.264 in MOV is very unreliable, the export failing immediately almost everytime, ocassionally I could get an export by changing the audio to 32 bit, any other settings failed.

The default MOV, MPEG-4, ALaw worked consistently.

John EB

@johnebaker @CarpentersMate @me_again

Hi John.

Wasn't there a memory address limit with 32 bit audio because of the FAT file system in use at that time?

Most audio files are still 16 or 24 bit for general use. There is little to be gained by going higher for video. Most video cameras still use FAT with their memory cards.

I feel there must be a connection there somewhere.

Ray.

Well you guys certainly tried your best and of course I appreciate all of it ...

"I'm afraid I'm not in your world of having to create files from old screen ratios" This will not be the case if I simply stick to AVI (and we already know its works).

I looked to QT export DV/DVCPRO NTSC (for the sake of Apple compatibility), but (as we know) it just won't fill the screen. And working with SD every pixel is precious. We can always talk about 'Up Scaling' later or just leave things as is. I watch SD documentries all the time on Amazon Prime.

"As long as the files produced still allow you to complete a given amount of disc space per project I would always go for least compression, IE, Best." Thanks Ray

As for 'two different worlds', my plan is to 'tweak' (pieces) of the B Roll archival material in MEP then export to DV AVI and back into FCP. The rest will import as captured AVI.

For my purposes at the moment, (unless I re-capture #20 DV Tapes with one of the G5's), its unnecessary. I'll stick with DV AVI or AVI (as long as they continue to work). We're only talking about 'fill' material to tell a story. In the end I will have inserted a 'fraction' of what I actually captured. And BTW, I already captured (about 20 tapes) of archival B Roll from NARA on the G5, (without this issue). So why should I fret? But yet the Apple guys say I might 'get away with it' for a while suggesting I needed to find something more 'durable' ??? What the heck are they talking about? Why fix something that's not broken?

I think we can agree I'd have a better product maintaining the 4:3 ratio with the archival footage (the small bit of it) than to sacrifice quality? True?

Thanks John!

Thanks Ray!

@CarpentersMate

Hi Mike.

First I would not try to compare what is possible from a home system compared to a professional company processing archival material. I would guess they are working from original film stock (unless it has degraded or exploded) and modern processes have come on somewhat able to remove grain, dust and grime as well as scratches to the point of being invisible without detriment to the original image. These smaller companies now work at resolutions of up to 4K from original film stock and the processes are more state of the art than available to non commercial users.

Durability in the Apple techs mind is just about the longevity of a codec in its general support for both recording and playback. Codec support has been dropped but mainly in the wrappers and not so much the codecs within and not always universally across developers at the same time. From an archival viewpoint this may mean keeping an old machine and its software running just to be able to access the original edits should the need ever arise. That can get expensive over time. In one respect digital is still in its infancy and there could be changes we can little speculate on. On the other hand, what is already here may well outlast most of us oldies here.

I think we can agree I'd have a better product maintaining the 4:3 ratio with the archival footage (the small bit of it) than to sacrifice quality? True?

Yes.

Ray.