Remix Agent - request for improvements

browj2 wrote on 3/9/2019, 1:49 PM

In MEP and VPX, the Remix Agent shows up under BPM Wizard, and Musical Cut Adjustment also opens it. I have usually had trouble getting a constant beat and there is no way to fine-tune or make adjustments to the BPM without re-tapping.

I have a ticket opened with Magix about the Remix Agent and they have asked for comments, bugs, improvements. For those of you who have used the Remix Agent to try to identify the BPM and/or set markers for musical cut adjustment, have you identified any bugs or problems and do you have any suggestions for improvement?

Note that the Remix Agent is also used by the Magix Audio Programs like MusicMaker, Music Studio and Samplitude Pro Xx. Users of Samplitude Pro have commented over the years and I will poll them as well.

To start off, here are a couple of my comments:

It would be good to be able to adjust manually the BPM number that comes up, and see the results graphically. Thus one could tweak the numbers to see if they can get the beat markers more precisely over the transients.
Add an option such that moving the first beat marker adjusts the others by the same amount.
I have found that in music that goes off tempo, I can manually adjust the marker positions, but sometimes I need to be able to insert another beat marker in the middle, probably because I didn't always tap. Add this possibility.
Make it possible to allow for tempo changes such that a marker is identified as a tempo change, the preceding markers are locked and tempo tapping only adjusts the markers from this point onwards. I realize that this would make it difficult to have just one tempo indicated for the entire audio object, thus,
Of course, the audio file could be split at a tempo change and Remix used on this part. There should be some way to indicate that the clip should be split at this point, and maybe even do it.

Some thinking is required. I suggested that Magix have someone from Magix work with the Remix Agent, trying to get the tempo and the beat markers right for various scenarios. At the same time, prepare a tutorial. I think then one would understand some of the problems that users seem to have with the Remix Agent.

On the other hand, I have had success with some songs that have a constant tempo. However, I have tried some songs provided by Magix that have no tempo information and the tempo that Remix Agent comes up with has a few decimal places, which I think is unlikely.

Example of Magix music, "A Bath Full of Joy":

I seem to have this one down with the Tempo correction indicated as 87.298 and locked at 87.3. Still sounds on to the end of the song. Maybe someone can try to see if they get the same result.

I will try more examples.

Thanks,

John CB

Comments

CubeAce wrote on 3/9/2019, 3:22 PM

@browj2

Hi John.

I don't use the Remix Agent but prefer to import audio into Cubase. One reason being I can add an electronic metronome and set tempo or adjust the metronome to the tempo of the track to match. That gives me a tempo readout with the option of turning the timeline into bar and beat subdivisions, assuming the tempo of the recording doesn't vary it's quite accurate. Once locked in, you can adjust tempo or pitch of the track. The metronome can also be set up for different styles of music so the electronic beeps accentuate rhythms.

Are you trying to do something similar in Remix Agent? Or are you just worried the readout is not accurate? Can it be accurate to a frame-rate that isn't in whole numbers?

Ray.

johnebaker wrote on 3/9/2019, 3:44 PM

@browj2

Hi John

I too do not use the Remix agent in MEP or VPX, only Music Maker.

John EB

browj2 wrote on 3/9/2019, 3:50 PM

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

For MEP/VPX, the Remix Agent will create snap markers on the audio clip once you get them placed on the transients in Remix Agent. This allows for easy cutting to the beat because you can cut at the snap markers - see the second image. You can't get this using Cubase, it has to be done in MEP/VPX.

In the text at the bottom of the first image, you can see that the Remix Agent will also create remix objects and save tempo and bar info to the file.

There is also a way to place snap markers to transients under Effects, Audio Effects, Snap Markers.

One of the problems that I will add to the list is that every time I do the same file, I get a slightly different beat. I just did and redid It's a Brand New Life. Using the same start position I got a slightly different tempo indication, 118+ the first time, 119+ the second. The second one is not in time with the music. Trying to tap to the tempo got me slightly closer but still not as good as the first time.

John CB

johnebaker wrote on 3/9/2019, 4:12 PM

@browj2

Hi john

. . . . the Remix Agent will create snap markers on the audio clip once you get them placed on the transients in Remix Agent. This allows for easy cutting to the beat because you can cut at the snap markers - see the second image. . . .

True, however this only used for the Musical Cut Adjustment 'wizard' and is, AFAICS, restricted to cuts only, it does not work for any kind of transition which I find very limiting.

It would be a good improvement if it worked taking in to account existing transitions as well, cutting at the centre of the transitions to the beat also taking in to account a minimum duration between transitions.

HTH

John EB

CubeAce wrote on 3/9/2019, 6:41 PM

@browj2

Thanks for the explanation, John.

At least that sort of explains how you work with audio, although I'm still guessing a bit at this stage.

My experience is probably different to your own and can easily look at a sound file and edit to the transients within MEP without the need of beat markers, but if need be Cubase allows me to import the video from MEP and edit the soundtrack and then export the result straight back into MEP so I could work either way. What I find limiting about using MEP with the inbuilt editing available for sound, is that I haven't yet found a way to edit audio between the frames where I would prefer to edit to make seamless joins. Ideally, sound edits should be made where there is no amplitude of a waveform present. That is important if I'm butt joining audio rather than making a transition. I don't know if MEP does this or not as I can't see the waveform clearly enough when expanded to it's limits to see where the edit takes place or how it's joined, whereas in Cubase I can edit to a single sample as it reaches zero amplitude. I'm not even sure if MEP takes into account the possibility of an offset DC zero amplitude sourced recording or not.

I also think I may work the other way around to you. I more often than not, get my soundtrack sorted first and then look where to fit the video to it. Sometimes sound precedes a clip or tails off after a scene has changed but possibly not with a musical soundtrack as much as I would with background sounds or dialogue.

By that I mean I sort my clips into a visual order and listen to how the sound flows. I edit the clips until the audio sounds correct to my ears and then slide the video around as I always have more video recorded than needed either side of a take.

Then there is musicianship. Unless it is a very tightly run studio session, live recorded music is seldom to an exact time period per beat and even some MIDI equipment has problems syncing internal clocks if not. Plus there is the problem of deliberate minute syncopation that may have to be accounted for.

Are you editing Disco music or Electronica where such demands may be more stringent? Are you trying to get several music tracks to work to the same BPM?

browj2 wrote on 3/10/2019, 2:29 PM

@johnebaker

Hi John,

Here is a screen shot and it shows 2 transitions, one at the playback marker that has the centre of the transition lined up with the marker in the audio clip. But it didn't do this the first time round.

Here is what I recall doing. I used the Slideshow Maker to get a few crossfades and the music. I didn't like the cut locations. I used the BPM wizard (Remix Agent) on the music of track 5 created by Slideshow Maker and after several tries got it to look good at 160+/- BPM. I applied this to get the snap markers. Then I used Musical Editing Adjustment and the photos snapped into place with the exception of the collage (the image was portrait so SSM created 2 background clips to fill in the left and right black part), which I adjusted manually.

Strange thing, the properties of the audio file say 120 BPM.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

Remember, we are not all professionals here. The Remix Agent is in MEP and VPX.

For making a few cuts, yes, one can look at the waveform, find the transient and make the cut there (applying a snap helps). But for many photos and short video clips, like in the above image, users are trying to have this automated for the most part. If you try Slideshow Maker, you can see better what a user would be trying to do. Try lining up 40 or 50 photos with transients manually, very time-consuming.

In the image below, you can see that the markers are usually placed at the transients, at the beat if you get it right in Remix Agent.

In MEP/VPX, getting these markers at the beats and then automatically cutting to them is what we are trying to accomplish. In MusicMaker and Samplitude, we're trying to find the BPM and get the music located on the beats/bars within the program. Samplitude allows for more flexibility - varying tempo. If you want to add in Midi, you need this set up properly.

Difference between MEP and VPX - in VPX, you can adjust the audio to start anywhere, not linked to a video frame; whereas in MEP, you can only locate the beginning of the audio clip to a video frame.

Off to shovel snow...again.

John CB

johnebaker wrote on 3/10/2019, 2:55 PM

@browj2

Hi John

Thanks for the info, like Ray, I adjust manually if I need to sync to the music, however unlike Ray I do not use the waveform, it do it by ear - waiting for some comment about head and keyboard 😂 😂.

John EB

CubeAce wrote on 3/10/2019, 4:04 PM

@browj2

First, apologies.

I thought you needed accurate BPM markers for audio editing, not clip alignment. You may still come across some of the problems I outlined earlier depending on the source material though. I hope you get the corrections/additions you need to make your workflow easier.

As for Pro 😆, that was in the days analog recording and chinagraph pencils.

Yes, some of my old skills transpose to new mediums but trust me when I say this stuff takes me a long time to get to grips with. I can still edit audio much quicker with a 10" open reel of tape and a razor blade than in the digital domain, and take long amounts of time trying to put what I read from MEPs manual into practice. In reality, to have continued with an analog workflow would have been really expensive compared to working in the digital domain.

As we currently have no snow, I've spent nine hours editing an eight-minute video trying to get different tempo clips of various dances to match a soundtrack of a different tempo and style. It may take another nine hours to get it looking right. I would dearly love the use of a trackerball to act as a scrub-wheel.

Ray.

johnebaker wrote on 3/10/2019, 4:19 PM

Hi Ray

. . . . I would dearly love the use of a trackerball to act as a scrub-wheel . . . .

Tracker balls are, IMO, useless for scrubbing - a job much better done by a shuttle or jog-dial .

John CB has the Shuttle Pro and I have the Shuttle Express- these 2 can also be used with other programs, they have a shed load of customisable options for different software.

The only issue I have with mine is interference with the Logitech Events Manager, I have Logitech keyboard, marble mouse and large touch pad.

The interference manifests itself as the Num lock on/off flashing up on screen when using the outer jog dial - I disabled the Logitech Events Manager until Shuttle or Logitech get this sorted.

HTH

John EB