Hi Mindsong,

After reading your post, I tried a quick experiment. For my general 3d for fun, I use either my Fuji W3 like you, or my JVC TD1 which both record a packaged 3d file in one container, so I thought I would try a pair of Panasonic FZ1000s on a mount to follow your stereo pair comments. It's the first time I have used a stereo pair with the latest version of VPX.

Thanks for putting your experiment together to compare notes! You rock.

First of all, does the output of the JVC-TD1 work like the Fuji's output, and load as a single object on the VPX timeline? I'm also curious what the 'mediainfo' utility would say about your JVC files, but I can probably track that down if it's not easily available to you. Maybe I can fake that format if I continue down that path...

I assume you are using VPX-9 (VPX now?) 15.0.5.211?, FWIW, and I would guess your inputs are MP4/AVC files from your sony camera pair? I've tried various AVI/MP4/WMV pairings and had the same problems with all pairs, so I don't think it matters too much, but having all info is good for debugging.

Having taken about 30secs of footage by manually triggering the cameras by hand, I digitised them down and loaded VPX. The footage was recorded in Pal at 1920x1080 25i, so I set up a normal Pal HD project. I also checked in the settings menu under Programme>Display that 3D editing was enabled.

Ok, sounds good...

The two recordings were put on to parallel tracks on the timeline, and before doing anything else, I aligned the audio on the two tracks using the 'align audio with this track option by right clicking on the audio of one of the tracks whilst they were both highlighted. I then went to the Stereo 3d menu >properties>left image first with both tracks highlighted. I set the alignment automatically, then manually adjusted slightly using the horizontal and vertical sliders. The next step was to split the track into two halves and drag the second part on to the first for a swing transition. On the second half, I entered a key frame for the start of a zoom under the Effects>Zoom/animation tab, and a second key frame further along the timeline for the end of the zoom where I set the finishing frame size. This was done on just one of the two highlighted tracks.

I usually make the second clip 50% transparent and left/right shift the pairs until I'm certain they're aligned, but your method sounds easier/smarter in letting the tool get your baseline aligned... I like it.

It seems that most edits on the paired clip do seem to apply to both clips, once they are 'bound' in the effect->3D-> properties tab but I might add that I've seen cases where this is not the case (try selecting either/both clips of a pair and right-click->'insert still image at playback point' and see if both clips become a still image... only one of mine becomes a still, the other continues to play as a stream, and I cannot find any way to get the second clip to become a still other than do both before '3D-binding' them), and that's part of my problem. I use that function a lot. It works as expected with my fuji-style 3D video objects.

Another place I've seen paired-file oddness: try and right-click on a 3D-paired clip-set, and save to the project folder, then 'load' that object right back to the timeline *from* the project folder item you just saved. Do your clips suddenly have an empty track between them and lose some of the alignment/color edits you've applied before saving them to the project folder? Mine do, and I can't get rid of the blank track, as the clip-pair is grouped and they move around together with the blank between them... and googling shows that VPX doesn't really let you remove tracks, only adds them. Another oddity, is once paired as a 3D clip-pair, resetting a selected pair to 2D doesn't ungroup the clips, and manually ungrouping them sometimes splits out the sound tracks into their own (4) tracks now.

So working in 3D-mode with these pairs was OK until VPX9 and the 3D functions (esp. Color tweaks issues with the new LUTs, and inconsistent exports) really has me looking for a 'better way', per the original post.

The next step was to try an export, so using the Export movie menu from the File tab, I selected 'Video as MP4' then 3d > Video on top of each other half height which suits my TV. I then selected the Bit rate in 'Advanced' and finally the destination. I also checked that the 3d hadn't reverted to 2d which sometimes happens, before rendering.

heh, I've seen that 'revert' behavior after using the 'advanced' tab as well. (didn't I set that to 3D? I swear I did...? :^)... With VPX 9, I'm only getting one of the L/R views on export, where I get both views with VPX-7 and MEP2016. This may be related to color adjustment issues mentioned elsewhere on the forum, but I'm not-so-certain. I've also found that trying to create a double-wide or double-tall SbS or O/U in the MP4 export no-longer works, as it's flagged as an illegal width/height. Maybe they've started honoring the MP4 spec in this version, but I used the old way forever, and don't know how you can select full-frame SbS without doubling the width and aspect and still call it full-frame SbS (pixel-wise). Double-wide/tall still works in AVIs so I do that for now, and convert to MP4 after-the-fact.

I then repeated the export process, but this time changed the 3D to anaglyph to check it on my non 3d monitor. Both versions exported with no problem, both taking 2x timeline length to export. Both play back normally in 3d.

Same here. My exports are consistent in that all 3D variations either honor both views or don't, so the export sub-system is consistently being fed good or not-good data and simply doing its thing, I think.

Hope that helps,

Roger

A big Thanks for running through that effort for me (and future readers!).

So, for simplicity of handling (one paired file vs two clips) and better editing consistency in VPX, I'm still going to see if I can find a format (lossless) that I can use to mux together my GoPro 3D-stereo pairs (and any others), into a format that VPX will 'see' as a single object like the fuji (and JVC?) clips.

Anyone had any luck doing that? Any success recipes or suggestions would be appreciated by a bunch of us 3D-ers.

Roger, I'm still interested in whether or not your JVC files load in the same way as the Fuji-W3 files into VPX. I may impose upon you to lend me a short/small sample of one of those so I can dissect it (1-2 seconds of anything 3D...).

Cheers,

--mindsong

I'll try to answer some of your questions, although I have a very intensive filming and editing schedule over the next few months, so no time to play around with 3d filming, much as I would like to. Maybe later in the year I will get time to do some stills and video with the FZ1000s as a stereo pair using my wireless triggers.

The JVC TD1 records either in AVCHD at 2x 960x1080 or MP4 MVC at 1080x1920. I prefer the latter for a much sharper image.

Magix imports the footage as a single object in the same way as Fuji W3 clips. The Panasonic FZ1000 stereo pair have a number of options, but yesterday I use the MP4 format. I would like to try the 4k mp4 as a stereo pair shoot at some point, to play with the post production zoom possibilities. Not for a while though.

Today I reloaded the quick project I recorded yesterday which I had saved with transition, a zoom and one section in black and white. The transition and zoom were still there but the BW had reverted to full colour. I the effect was listed as being there, but wasn't showing, so I deleted it, highlighted the lower track video stream (still linked as a stereo pair) and added the BW effect again. I then saved the project, shut down, then rebooted and reloaded. This time the BW and the other effects were there, so maybe effects need to be added to the lower track to show across the pair.

Your method of aligning the tracks by adding transparency to one is interesting, although I find it very quick to auto align then use anaglyph monitoring for final tweaking. That way I can immediately see if there are any window violations, or alter the depth if required.

I haven't had any luck with lifting a stereo still from the twin streams, I just seem to get two identical pics even if I lift them separately.

Roger

Hi Mindsong,

As requested here is a link to a short clip recorded on the JVC TD1 during a trip to The Netherlands.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9puvtunhncad53t/00092.MTS?dl=0

Roger

I'll try to answer some of your questions, although I have a very intensive filming and editing schedule over the next few months, so no time to play around with 3d filming, much as I would like to. Maybe later in the year I will get time to do some stills and video with the FZ1000s as a stereo pair using my wireless triggers.

no rush, I didn't intend to make this anyone else's problem, but appreciate that anything we can do to both identify and work-around VPX oddities will benefit future VPX users - at least until the issues are actually addressed by the manufacturer...

The JVC TD1 records either in AVCHD at 2x 960x1080 or MP4 MVC at 1080x1920. I prefer the latter for a much sharper image.

Magix imports the footage as a single object in the same way as Fuji W3 clips. The Panasonic FZ1000 stereo pair have a number of options, but yesterday I use the MP4 format. I would like to try the 4k mp4 as a stereo pair shoot at some point, to play with the post production zoom possibilities. Not for a while though.

OK, so the HQ MP4/MVC JVC clip loads and edits as a single object, excellent news. Out of curiousity, I have to ask if the AVCHD 960x1080 version also loads as a single object on the timeline and edits the same way (even if lower quality).

With the clip you've provided below, I believe it is a true MVC file with a base stream (L) and the smaller dependent delta stream (R). My conclusion is based on the bitrates from media-info which are 25M/15M respectively, which is about what folks expect in terms of stream compression in this mode. I'll demux the streams and verify my guess. (thanks a bunch for that clip!)

Today I reloaded the quick project I recorded yesterday which I had saved with transition, a zoom and one section in black and white. The transition and zoom were still there but the BW had reverted to full colour. I the effect was listed as being there, but wasn't showing, so I deleted it, highlighted the lower track video stream (still linked as a stereo pair) and added the BW effect again. I then saved the project, shut down, then rebooted and reloaded. This time the BW and the other effects were there, so maybe effects need to be added to the lower track to show across the pair.

Yeah, that's the kind of effect I'm seeing as well, and to be honest, even with my personal obsession over detail and QA sensitivity, I haven't found an exact trend in which clip characteristics are saved and what steps relate to that saving. I just know that I can't yet rely on my clip adjustments being preserved in the library with any determinism yet, although there may be some steps we can take to 'force' the issue. I'm thinking a full project save before saving any clips to the library may normalize the internal structures, but that'll be an experiment.

Your method of aligning the tracks by adding transparency to one is interesting, although I find it very quick to auto align then use anaglyph monitoring for final tweaking. That way I can immediately see if there are any window violations, or alter the depth if required.

I used the transparency mode *before* I bind them into a 3D-clip-pair because the anaglyph mode doesn't work on pre-3D pairs (bottom clip 'wins' in VPX...). I try to get the pre/post frame clipping and frame alignment correct before 3D-binding the clips together. Perhaps that's not necessary with the 3D framing functions available - I should try that, esp. with the sound match function. Like you, I do almost all of the rest of my 3D adjustments in anaglyph mode once I've bound the pairs.

I haven't had any luck with lifting a stereo still from the twin streams, I just seem to get two identical pics even if I lift them separately.

That's unexpected. I get a single still in the top clip and a video stream in the bottom, but both clips are 'cut' at the same point, as if part of the effect mixed-down on the both clips, but didn't complete in the second clip.

Like you, I'm doing 'real' work as I pursue this 3D effort, but am really trying to get a reliable workflow under control before taking on a rather large 3D project in my queue. I have no fun trying to solve technical issues when in 'creative' mode, and the VPX idiosyncrasies make that continuity almost impossible right now until I get the reliable workarounds into my system. The latest update made it almost impossible to continue until I deal with it. The bummer is that I shoot in GoPro's ProTune color mode, and VPX-9 finally has the ability to use LUTs to bring out the quality (and it works), but those functions don't work reliably on both 3D paired clips, and any other color tweaking breaks the program (using LUTs and additional color correction results in a black monitor display of the clip... known problem, unrelated to 3D mode, apparently).

Roger

In another 'channel', I'm looking for information on generating dual-stream MP4 MVC clips that would use an original (L) stream AVC and generate a new (R) dependent/delta stream with minimal loss, but result in a file that looks like your JVC MP4 MVC file, or similar enough that I get a near-lossless 3D-pair in a single file (for handling, and management, etc.), and a clip that hopefully imports and edits much more naturally in VPX than the paired clips. Even better, would be emulating the other JVC AVCHD mode (full-res dual streams!). Maybe MAGIX could build this sort of conversion into their batch tools (hint hint).

More to come, and again, thanks for your continued insights/experience. Priceless.

--mindsong

(edits for typos and clarity)

Hi Mindsong,

As requested here is a link to a short clip recorded on the JVC TD1 during a trip to The Netherlands.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9puvtunhncad53t/00092.MTS?dl=0

Roger

Wow, thanks! I'm already taking that file apart to see what makes it tick!

But... I humbly ask another *huge* favor!, Even though the quality is lower, the format of the JVC 960x1080 AVCHD file may be exactly the layout I need to duplicate with my GoPro AVC pairs, to preserve the full 1080p resolution of both streams. The resolution may be the only structural difference.

Would it be possible to have you generate a similarly short version of that AVCHD format (any content, even a few seconds of your your desk or walls or feet...! lol) that I can also dissect would be wonderful.

If I/we could figure out a way to mux any arbitrary AVC pairs together and use the proper header format and flags to convince MAGIX VPX that the file was a legit 3D pair, we'd have our lossless dual-pair single full-rez file format. Perhaps even some other viewers and devices may recognize that format as well.

I'll happily share the muxing formula/recipe, if I can get it to work!

cheers,

--mindsong

I'm off to bed now, but have put a JVC battery on charge and will try to get a quick AVCHD shot to upload in the morning.

Roger

Hi,

I took two brief shots with the TD1 this morning, one set on AVCHD, and the other with the same shot but set to AVCHD 3D, which was a firmware upgrade on the camera to give a higher quality AVCHD format. I have attached a fuller data sheet of each of those files, one of which needed two grabs.

I'm afraid my technical grasp of the data is probably a lot less than yours, as I am more interested in what I see rather than a load of data, although I get some of it!

Here is the link to the video files https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3xp86f5bktx4lqt/AAAsrN0OdG4H52ZNnEO1yMKEa?dl=0

Roger

Hi,

I took two brief shots with the TD1 this morning, one set on AVCHD, and the other with the same shot but set to AVCHD 3D, which was a firmware upgrade on the camera to give a higher quality AVCHD format. I have attached a fuller data sheet of each of those files, one of which needed two grabs.

Hi Roger,

As ever, thanks for pursuing this with me. Interesting stuff in those files, and not quite what I expected (sort of).

From what I can tell, the single-stream AVCHD file is a standard x.264 encoded video stream, that is in an MTS container, but could easily have been an MP4. Nice to know that the manufacturer seemed to generate a common file that should work with most anything. Good start and plus for that camera (I'd like to know how well you like that camera, but we can discuss that later.)

What struck me as odd, may simply be a mis-understanding of mine. The second file, the 'AVCHD 3D' file seems to have exactly the same formatting and settings (bitrates, stream parameters, etc.) as the original file you sent, and is, in fact, a correct/standard MVC (base AVC + dependent delta stream), where the first stream looks exactly like the single stream file above, and the second stream is generated from the second video and the first video. The first stream, when extracted, plays fine, and second stream does not play by itself, which is expected.

So I'm thinking either:

• The two 3D formats that come from the JVC camera are not actually different (or notably different), as they are both MTS->MVC pairs.
• or perhaps the camera was not in the mode we expected for the AVCHD filming (human error, or settings are not responding as advertised?).
• or maybe we're mis-interpreting the meaning of that alternate mode

Note that the second stream's mediainfo settings carry a 'MultiView_Count=2' setting, and is missing a few other settings, relative to the first stream. And note that the first stream looks almost exactly like any MP4/AVC file out there.

I was hoping (am hoping?) that there is a file-format out there that has two streams that look almost identical to the first stream in the files you shared (both complete AVC's) with some magic flag/setting that indicates 3D to MAGIX and maybe TVs or projectors, etc.

I've been able to 'build' MP4 and MTS dual-stream files that *do* have two such streams, but none of them 'look' 3D to the VPX importer. It just sees and uses the first stream, probably because I'm missing some flag or settings. That's why your comment about dual AVC files is so intriguing. Perhaps your JVC camera can generate that sort of file with further settings adjustment.

I'm very curious about that camera, having seen your clips, and am going to go study the specs and consider getting one if the price/specs work out. I like my Fuji, but with the quality of the output of the dual GoPro-3+ rig that used to sell, the Fuji is a little bit rough in comparison... heh.

I'm afraid my technical grasp of the data is probably a lot less than yours, as I am more interested in what I see rather than a load of data, although I get some of it!

I'm diving into this all head-first and am a mish-mash of understanding and abject confusion...

Here is the link to the video files https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3xp86f5bktx4lqt/AAAsrN0OdG4H52ZNnEO1yMKEa?dl=0

Roger

Thanks again, and per my notes above, could you check the camera settings again to compare the modes and see if anything else strikes you as being experiment-worthy? I'm going to go find the data-sheet on the camera (for tech info, and out of curiosity now) and see if it lends any hints as to what we can expect from the camera.

cheers!

--mindsong

Hi,

It's certainly possible that the original clip I posted was actually set to AVCHD and not the MP4 setting as I thought, as it was shot at the beginning of last year and I am not certain. I usually use the MP4 setting as I prefer the quality. I'll try to take another shot in the MP4 setting today as it will only take a few minutes.

I think the JVC TD1 was the best consumer grade 3d video camera made, which is why I bought it, but you would have difficulty getting hold of one now as they were discontinued at least 3 years ago. They are also quite sort after used in good condition, selling for not far off the original new price. The lens separation is not as much as the W3, so stereo depth is less, but better than most other 3d cameras that were available. The overall specs are still on the JVC website, so have a look at that for a good overview and I will be happy to answer any questions that I can. It's a great camera for instant HD 3d 1080 filming, with it's 3d screen and 5x zoom in 3d. Parallax adjustment is also auto, but can be manually adjusted easily if required. I also like the fact that in addition to the SD card recording facility, there is also 60Gb of onboard memory, so I rarely bother with an SD card. It takes 3d stills, but I think that stills are better from the W3.

Roger

OK here is the new clip link which is definitely MP4 https://www.dropbox.com/s/n1n7iqt4sl3g2vd/MP4%20Footage.MP4?dl=0

I have attached the data sheet for the new clip as well.

Roger

Hi there!

OK, busy week here, and not nearly enough time to look into this, but I got your newest file, and it's not like anything I've yet seen in mediainfo before, but it looks like the internals are all there, and it doesn't look like the usual MVC, so I need to sit down and study this gem! Very different from the others!

And ... MAGIX/VPX just took it in without a problem. It's the only 'object/clip' I've seen in MAGIX that registers as proper 3D, but has no clip 'properties' meta-data in MAGIX that indicates anything 3D - in fact, there's no metadata at all. I also noticed that the file has a frame-rate of 25fps, but a 'original framerate' of 50-fps, meaning it may be frame-packed (interleaved full frames), rather than interlaced (individual frames that intertwine two views). I don't think that would be good for my target of independent streams, but the cineform codec stereo format has similar features, so it may be a matter of research and finding the right tools to get a good workflow in place. Ever hopeful...

It may take a few days for me to round up the time it'll take to dig into this, but I will, and I'll report back ASAP.

A huge thanks for your continued help!

Bummer on the lack of available JVC TD1s anymore. I've been working with my GoPro rig, but it's not really a good interactive device, but generally good for mounted/remote-control use. I haven't kept up with any of the other options lately. I like the Fuji W3's still images as well, esp for casual snapshot use and convenience, it rocks.

It looks like the blackmagic folks can tie their cameras together for good 3D sync, but that looks pretty high-end for my level of involvement right now.

Any other current options that you know of in the consumer/pro-sumer 3D camera range? rumors of things coming on-line?

big thanks and cheers for now!

--mindsong