@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

The problem is with Object Borders and moving them in different mouse modes, not moving object in different mouse modes.

I think that you are referring to moving objects, not Object Borders, in different mouse modes. There is a difference.

Moving the Object Border moves it as I show in the video. In single-object mouse mode, only the border moves and the clips to the left and right, assuming that they have been trimmed don't move. On the trim points are adjusted. Thus, the left and right clips change duration.

In single-track mouse mode, the behaviour changes slightly. The Object Border moves, but all objects to the right of the border and on the same track, move. The clip to the left of the Object Border gets shorter or longer, but not the object to the right of the Object Border.

In Mouse Mode for All Tracks, the same thing should happen. The Object Border should move exposing (the trimmed part) or hiding the left clip, and all objects to the right of the border and on all tracks, should move. However, this doesn't happen. It actually just behaves as though one grabs the clip to the right of the object border and moves it. Do you understand now?

I only have the 2019 manual for MEP, and it doesn't mention Object Borders. The VPX11 manual does mention object borders right after the part about Object Handles. In the MEP manual, Object Handles is mentioned at about page 110.

I just checked MEP2019 and the Object Border tools are there and they do exactly what I mentioned is supposed to happen in VPX but doesn't. It may be that the problem is only in VPX. Someone should check MEP2020.

Here is a video showing moving the Object Borders in MEP2019. Case 3, mouse mode for all tracks works. Compare that to the VPX video where it doesn't work:

Also, so that you understand when you try it, look at the image below for the Border Object tool - double vertical lines with left and right arrows:

John CB

Hi John.

Sorry, I wasn't seeing the importance of the timeline cursor position before. I think but I'm not 100% sure that I'm getting the same result in MEP Premium 2020 as you are finding in VPX. It's just not my normal way of editing so not used to this and no longer have the previous version to check against.

Ray.

@browj2, @CubeAce

Hi John, Ray

I am getting the same behaviour in VPX and MEP 2020 for both images and video

HTH

John EB

@johnebaker

Ah! So at least I got my trial experiment correct. Thank you for conformation John.

I would love to know why this workflow pattern? Is it in case someone would want to later alter a cut scene or is there some other benefit I'm missing or problem it's circumnavigating that I'm not experiencing?

Ray.

@johnebaker

Hi John,

Thanks for confirming.

I just noticed something else. Dragging the Object Border using the left end of a clip causes the screen to go black. Dragging the right end shows the new last frame of the clip. I think that dragging the head of the clip should show the first frame of the clip. I'll add this as another point for Bug 38.

Could you please check this?

@CubeAce

The Object Border tool is basically to fine-tune the cut point in one shot between two objects that have been trimmed or at least one is a photo and the other trimmed, without moving anything else.

In mouse mode for a single object, the left and right object trim points are moved, nothing else.

Recent example, I had music on one track and some of my cut points didn't line up with the transients. There weren't many. I would simply put the playback marker at the transient and drag the Object Border to the playback marker. With mouse mode for a single object, nothing else gets moved.

Otherwise, I would have to drag the bottom right handle of the first clip back to the playback marker, then drag the bottom left handle of the second clip to the playback marker. The Object Border does it in one movement.

For the other 2 modes, only the trim point of the end of the left object gets moved. The second object does not change length and the in point stays put, and everything to the right, depending on mouse mode 7 or 8, moves as well.

An example of this case, I want the out (trim) point of the first clip at a different location, but the in-point of the second clip to remain and the clip to stay the same duration. Dragging the Object Border just moves the cut point of the first object.

Without this tool, you would have to once again drag the bottom right handle of the first clip back to the new trim point, then in mouses modes 7 or 8, drag the next clip to the left to close the gap, also moving everything else on the track or all tracks with it. Or, to go the other way, move everything to the right, drag the bottom right handle of the first clip forward to the new trim point, then drag everything else back to close the gap. Too many manipulations.

Without using Object Borders, if you drag an object to the left, you make a transition, to the right, you open up a gap. If you don't want a transition, then you have to do one of the steps indicated above.

John CB

@browj2

Hi John

. . . . Dragging the Object Border using the left end of a clip causes the screen to go black. Dragging the right end shows the new last frame of the clip . . . .

Confirmed - I assume you also mean the display re-appears on release of the mouse.

John EB

@johnebaker

Hi John,

Yes, the display comes back on release of the mouse. We just can't see which frame we're stopping at.

John CB

@browj2

Got it.

Thanks for the explanation John.

I'm sure you are much faster than me at editing as I have to think and rearrange timelines a lot, but then I almost always also change a transition as well. Not just time but sometimes effect as well. I don't think I'm that disciplined.

Ray.

@johnebaker @CubeAce

Here are the problems with the Object Trimmer, over and above the problems already on the bug list for fades.

Do not test this with Proxy files.

Problems Ctrl+Alt+click on arrows for Moving the Object in 5 frame increments does not work properly; on the Move Object tools, where holding down the Alt key and pressing an arrow causes the same problem as
Ctrl+Alt+click on arrow. The bottom right, left and right arrows, do not do what they should.

The right arrow of the Object Content does not usually work for single clicking. Ctrl+Alt works. (I didn't show this in the video).

The shortcut to move 5 frames is incorrectly indicated in the manual as Ctrl+mouse click, whereas it is actually Ctrl+Alt+mouse click. The manual should be corrected.

a.    Move Object tool: With Ctrl+Alt+click on arrow for 5 frame movements, instead of moving everything, only the selected clip gets moved. Single click moves everything, which is the correct mode. Also, holding down the Alt key and clicking on an arrow does a 1 frame increment but has the same problem – only the object is moved.

b.    Bottom Right Arrows toolset:                             

i. With the tail of selected clip Untrimmed, the head of right clip Trimmed, clicking on the left button moves the right end of the selected clip to the left, opening up a gap. This may be the intended behaviour, but it should be looked at. I would expect this to move the cut point to the left and to move everything that is at the right on all tracks towards the left.                           

ii. With the tail of selected clip Trimmed, head of right clip Untrimmed or Trimmed, clicking on the left button moves the end of the selected clip to the left, thus trimming it, and drags only the right clip to the left, opening up a gap at the right end of the right clip. Everything should move to the left. Clicking on the right button moves the cut point to the right, thus untrimming the selected clip, but it also pushes only the clip at its right towards the right, creating a transition at the next clip. Ctrl+Alt does the same thing, but in 5-frame increments. I would expect this to move the cut point to the left or right, and to move everything that is at the right on all tracks towards the left
or right, not just one object. There should be no gap or transition.

Comment:

The Object Trimmer allows you to see the changing images in the 2 monitors of the trimmer when using the bottom left and right toolset. This can help select a frame. The same occurs with moving the Object Content. Of course, using the middle tool, which moves the selected clip, there is no change to the images.

John CB

@johnebaker @CubeAce

Hi,

It doesn't look like anyone has viewed the video. I suspect that the same problem occurs in MEP2020. I will be sending in an updated bug list to Magix tomorrow.

Ray,

About your last comment, 90% of editing video is selecting, trimming, arranging, rearranging everything. However, the other 10% of the work takes 90% of the time. That's why I have many, many projects at 90%. Either way, anything that you can do to facilitate and speed up the process, helps. You need to know how all of the tools work, then you'll find that the technic of editing becomes simpler and more efficient, leaving more time for the artistry.

Take a look at the Object Trimmer. The 2 main points, moving the objects at the right on all tracks to get a new insert point, and adjusting just the trim point without affecting anything else, are well worth knowing.

The same thing applies to the Edit Trimmer. It has a couple of very useful tools that are much simpler than manual adjustments.

John CB

@browj2

Hi John.

I just looked at your video.

Two things I'd like to say.

I agree the manual has not been updated sufficiently, there have been a lot of changes to the program that are not reflected in updates to the manual. Not just on this specific subject.

Next about your video clip.

I noticed that sometimes the audio of one clip sometimes seemed linked the the video output of it's respective track while at other times it wasn't. Why is this and would it explain some of the problems you are experiencing? I've no idea if it would or wouldn't but I've not noticed this behavior in my own editing.

On a separate note, I think we have two different ways of approaching the same problems while editing.

I know I'm much less experienced at this than you are and not in any way knocking what you find a reliable and quick way of editing, but for me the main three mouse mode behaviors of single object, single track, or all track movement is sufficient without the need for the object trimmer. My thought processes are not necessarily straight forward, adding tracks when needed for say added graphical effects. What would be a great improvement to the usefulness and speed of use of the program for me would be the ability to move individual tracks up or down to place ones I'm working together with at the time I'm editing that section. I know clips can be moved up or down but to be able to just grab the track's box on the left and move it along with the contents on that track would be quick and easy. I would also like to be able to make my own track colours from a palette and have the lettering able to be altered to make them more easily readable, particularly in the track box headers.

Ray.

@browj2

Hi John

I can replicate all the issues in your video in both VPX and MEP, like @CubeAce, (currently working on my laptop)

I too have a different approach to using the Object trimmer and use it more regularly that I have swapped the keyboard shortcut with that of the Edit Trimmer, and rarely, if at all, use the bottom left and right controls (start and end controls).

@CubeAce

. . . . I noticed that sometimes the audio of one clip sometimes seemed linked the the video output of it's respective track while at other times it wasn't . . . . I've not noticed this behavior in my own editing. . . . .

Not sure what you are referring to!

Is this the J and L cuts you are seeing when you hold down the Alt key while dragging and edge of a trimmed object and the video moves while the audio does not?

John EB

@johnebaker

Hi John,

Thanks for taking a look.

The bottom left controls allow you to nudge the left Object Border of the selected clip to the left and right on trimmed clips, the same as I showed in the other part for dragging the Object Border handle left and right on trimmed clips. It's just more precise and you can see the new first frame. The bottom right does the same but for the right end of the clip (except for the problem that I've raised), it nudges the Object Border and you can see the new last frame. Dragging the Object Border on the timeline is probably more commonly used (except by Ray), but the Object Trimmer has the advantage for nudging single frames and seeing the new first and last frames. Remember, I showed that the screen goes black when using the Object Border handles on the left end of the clip (I think I showed that?); dragging the right Object Border shows the new frame.

I think that the manual is wrong for the bottom left and right controls, but the hints are right.

The explanation in the manual contradicts the hints for both the bottom left and right controls. The manual (F1) for both bottom left and right controls states, "Here you can adjust the lower object handles."

The hint for the bottom left controls states: "Changes the first frame of the object. If another object cuts directly to this one, then this arrow allows you to move the cut. If another object crossfades to this one, then this arrow allows to change the end of the crossfade."

The hint for the bottom right controls states, "Changes the last frame of the object (<- n :m ->)" The latter means moving the right Object Border left and right, not moving the lower handles, which would create a transition.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

Thanks for taking a look.

I presume that what you are seeing is in the Object Trimmer. Making adjustments shows up on the timeline, but only for the video part; the audio part doesn't move right away. When you click on "OK" the audio part catches up and remains aligned with the video. Objects on other tracks also catch up.

I, too, sometimes get the audio and video parts misaligned. I think that this happens when the AV of one or more of the clips is ungrouped and then a clip is extended or deleted in Single Track Mouse Mode. When this happens, I ungroup the misaligned audio from the video, and right-click on the video part, Restore Audio.

About your comments on the use of other tools. Did you watch my tutorials on Basic Editing parts 1 and 2, where I cover the various ways to import, including trimming before importing, and the major tools including those in the popdowns?

I hope that, in addition to the mouse modes, you are using the trim commands, T (cut), Z (trim the head or to the left of the playback marker) and U (trim the tail or to the right of the playback marker). These are as important as the mouse modes, if not more so.

Thanks,

John CB

 

b.    Bottom Right Arrows toolset:                             

i. With the tail of selected clip Untrimmed, the head of right clip Trimmed, clicking on the left button moves the right end of the selected clip to the left, opening up a gap. This may be the intended behaviour, but it should be looked at. I would expect this to move the cut point to the left and to move everything that is at the right on all tracks towards the left.                           

ii. With the tail of selected clip Trimmed, head of right clip Untrimmed or Trimmed, clicking on the left button moves the end of the selected clip to the left, thus trimming it, and drags only the right clip to the left, opening up a gap at the right end of the right clip. Everything should move to the left. Clicking on the right button moves the cut point to the right, thus untrimming the selected clip, but it also pushes only the clip at its right towards the right, creating a transition at the next clip. Ctrl+Alt does the same thing, but in 5-frame increments. I would expect this to move the cut point to the left or right, and to move everything that is at the right on all tracks towards the left
or right, not just one object. There should be no gap or transition.

Correction to the above:

b.    Bottom Right Arrows toolset: 

i. With the tail of selected clip Untrimmed, the head of right clip Trimmed, clicking on the left button moves the right end of the selected clip to the left, opening up a gap. This may be the intended behaviour, but it should be looked at. I would expect this to move the cut point to the left and to untrim the clip that is at the right, not open up a gap. The gap should only be opened once the trimmed part of the right object has all been exposed. No objects should be moved.

ii. With the tail of selected clip Trimmed, the head of right clip Untrimmed or Trimmed, clicking on the left button moves the end of the selected clip to the left, thus trimming it, and drags only the next clip at the right, to the left, opening up a gap at the right end of the right clip. What should happen is that if the right clip has been trimmed, the Object Border should move to the left, exposing the trimmed part of the right clip, just like moving the Object Border on the timeline in single object mouse mode. If the head of the right clip has not been trimmed, then the right border of the selected clip should move to the left opening up a gap. No objects should move. Clicking on the right button moves the cut point to the right, thus untrimming the selected clip, but it also pushes only the clip at its right towards the right, creating a transition at the next clip. Ctrl+Alt does the same thing, but in 5-frame increments. I would expect this to move the right Object Border to the left or right, and no objects moved.

To be clear, the bottom right tools should do exactly the same as the bottom left tools, except that the right end or border of the selected clip should move and nothing else.

This is complicated even though it is simple.

John CB

More corrections or a question

Move Object tool: The manual gives the shortcut as Ctrl+click on arrow for 5 frame increments but it doesn't work.

I found that Ctrl+Alt+click on arrow does 5 frame movements but the behaviour is different from a single click. Instead of moving everything, only the selected clip gets moved.

However, I found that holding down the Alt key and clicking on an arrow does a 1 frame increment but has the same behaviour as Ctrl+Alt+click.

I was wondering if Alt+click and Ctrl+Alt+click were not undocumented features, and the problem really is simply just fixing Ctrl+click. If this were the case, then Ctrl+click needs to work everywhere, in both Trimmers. Right now, only Ctrl+Alt+click works.

Any ideas on this?

John CB

@browj2

Hi John.

Your explanation seems to quite possible. I'm not overly sure what I'm seeing in the video, hence the question for clarification. I'm trying hard just to keep up. This will take me some time to sort out and try to set up for myself and get my head around. I'm an analog person trying to navigate a digital domain that I can only cope with at my own pace.

I learn as I need to, to overcome a problem and not necessarily to be more efficient. So my first port of call is the manual if I'm stuck for a solution and then if I don't understand the manual I seek out either videos on the subject or online tutorials.

I see and use the advantage of previewing a clip and putting markers at either end if needed to import into a project although it doesn't seemingly shorten the clip itself (all of it is available if you drag either end once imported) nor does it seem to reduce the import time into the project but it can reduce some time shortening the clip to the desired points. So yes I find value in that.

Overall though I'm still in the experimental stage, not just in editing but in using video as a medium. Experimenting with frame rates and exposure times, Usage of filters and experimenting with different microphones. I'm not sure I'll stick to one set of recording rules or not at this stage. The same as I'm not sure whether to program my Inteli-mouse buttons for various functions within MEP which seems a possibility. I could assign Ctrl+Alt to a button for instance.

I know have projects to finish that are important to you and this must be quite a setback so I am trying.

I am honestly trying to keep up here but I think I'm over my head as my brain constantly seems to glaze over as I read and feel like I'm suffering from a form of dyslexia where whole sentences are beginning to blur into each other into an incoherent mess. It's like trying to teach someone to drive through a city center when all the person has ever experienced is riding a mule in a desert. It will take me time.

I think also I've still yet to optimise MEP as my export times seem much slower than some of the other people here. I semi suspect I could still benefit from a more modern graphics card but that is quite low on my priority list at present. It could also be that running up to 14 parallel tracks at once, most with effects is also causing a problem and more likely. But most worryingly is my processor and Intel GPU just seem to be ticking over during export. I can run Cubase and do other things at the same time, even watch videos online with no additional impact on the export times.

I may get additional time on Thursday to look into your present problem but have no doubt my results will be similar to your own as your methodology seems quite thorough as long as I set it up correctly. I'm always willing to learn, just not always capable. 😉

Ray.

@browj2

I keep reading these threads and watching your video. I get it now and know what to look for. I will get on it later in the week.

Ray.

@browj2

Hi John.

I don't know if this is important or not but I notice the behaviour using the mouse is the same whether I use the Object Trimmer or not depending on the selection of how the mouse interacts with several tracks or a single one.