@jak.willis

Hi Jak

See this topic regarding Smart Copy and how finicky it is.

John EB

 

Hi John,

Yes, but I really don’t understand why it would say there are effects active when they’re not?

@jak.willis

I wonder whether the error message you see is actually something of a "red herring"?

As I understand it, when exporting any video files with the aim of creating either a DVD or BD, there must be some degree of re-encoding happening in order to create a fully-compliant disc, i.e., one that is playable in a standard DVD or BD player.

One other thought: what is the sample rate and bit rate of the audio of the files you are seeking to burn to BD disc?

Jeff
Forum Moderator

@jak.willis

Hi Jak

. . . . why it would say there are effects active when they’re not . . . .

The main cause of Smart Copy not working is generally effects. and/or different parameters for the source and export, however Smart Copy is not smart enough to determine which and has only the one error message. .

Can you give us a MediaInfo analysis of a source file and the exported files.

If you do not have MediaInfo installed, download it from here and install, see this tutorial on how to setup MediaInfo and analyse a video clip for all the data required.  

John EB

@jak.willis

I wonder whether the error message you see is actually something of a "red herring"?

As I understand it, when exporting any video files with the aim of creating either a DVD or BD, there must be some degree of re-encoding happening in order to create a fully-compliant disc, i.e., one that is playable in a standard DVD or BD player.

One other thought: what is the sample rate and bit rate of the audio of the files you are seeking to burn to BD disc?

Jeff
Forum Moderator

Hello there,

Here is a screenshot of the audio details as they appear in a mediainfo analysis:

@jak.willis

Hi Jak

. . . . why it would say there are effects active when they’re not . . . .

The main cause of Smart Copy not working is generally effects. and/or different parameters for the source and export, however Smart Copy is not smart enough to determine which and has only the one error message. .

Can you give us a MediaInfo analysis of a source file and the exported files.

If you do not have MediaInfo installed, download it from here and install, see this tutorial on how to setup MediaInfo and analyse a video clip for all the data required.  

John EB

Here is a mediainfo analysis of one of the files:

@jak.willis

I was under the impression that because the files are in 1920x1080 and encoded in H.264 with an MP4 container, that they would be ‘Blu-ray compliant’ and so that I could use Smart copy (or smart render) to simply burn the files to the disc without having to re-encode everything.

Jak, not so. Have a look at the table on the Wiki Bluray page here. 1920x1080 25P (your files) are only supported for UHD bluray, which Magix doesn't do. To make your files compliant, Magix needs to recode them into 1920x1080 50i.

My understanding is that mp4 files are never compliant with Blu-ray specs.

You could try rewrapping your mp4 with Shutter Encoder to a mts file.

As for recoding 25p to 50i (which is still 25 fps) it's not the image that needs recoding just the header info to indicate the file is interlaced instead of progressive. On deinterlacing by the player you end up with 25 duplicate frames per second. Does MEP enable you to alter a file's properties so it is read as interlaced instead of progressive?

@AAProds, @jak.willis

Hi Al, Jak

. . . . 1920x1080 25P (your files) are only supported for UHD bluray, . . . .

I think there is a mistype there, UHD is 4K 3840 x 2160 which was never released as a consumer format, it was strictly commercial only, the licensing fees are 'megabucks'.

1920x1080 25P is not supported by MEP/MMS/VDL

@ericlnz is correct, 'mp4 files are never compliant with Blu-ray specs'.

The MediaInfo data indicates that the MP4 files are progressive and must be re-encoded to either of the 2 Magix implemented BD video formats, ie MPEG-2, or AVC (h.264) encoding, both being Interlaced scan.

John EB

@AAProds, @jak.willis

Hi Al, Jak

. . . . 1920x1080 25P (your files) are only supported for UHD bluray, . . . .

I think there is a mistype there, UHD is 4K 3840 x 2160 which was never released as a consumer format, it was strictly commercial only, the licensing fees are 'megabucks'.

1920x1080 25P is not supported by MEP/MMS/VDL

@ericlnz is correct, 'mp4 files are never compliant with Blu-ray specs'.

The MediaInfo data indicates that the MP4 files are progressive and must be re-encoded to either of the 2 Magix implemented BD video formats, ie MPEG-2, or AVC (h.264) encoding, both being Interlaced scan.

John EB

And I guess by having to re-encode means losing quality?

Is there any way at all to convert 1080p to 1080i without affecting the quality? Any programs outside of Magix?

just the header info to indicate the file is interlaced instead of progressive.

How do you do this?

@jak.willis

Hi

. . . . just the header info to indicate the file is interlaced instead of progressive . . . How do you do this . . . .

AFAIK, you cannot do this, there is more to this.

The video must be re-encoded as the progressive video is split interlaced video is stored in the containing file with each interlaced field being a separate frame at a doubled frame rate, each frame contains one half of the image, either the Odd lines (Top field), or the Even lines (Bottom field).

For more about Interlaced video see this Wiki article, it has a good demo of how Interlaced video is 'read' and displayed.

The principal of frame duplication is a often used when converting film to video, or changing framerates with good video converters, through a complex sequence of which determines the frame(s) to be duplicated to avoid jitter.

. . . . without affecting the quality . . . .

The perceived visual quality loss is unlikely to be noticable on playback on a TV or computer. The actual quality loss would require deeper pixel by pixel analysis of the before and after videos.

John EB

AFAIK, you cannot do this, there is more to this

I can do it, and have done it, with several editing/DVD programmes including Vegas Pro, VMS and DVDA. The image isn't changed. The two fields are the same. It's just that they aren't taken from two periods in time but are from the same time. When read as an interlaced file (instead of progressive) the top field is used to create a full frame and the bottom field used to create another full frame. Because both fields are from the same time you get two identical frames, subject of course to the quality of the interpolation.

I'm not familiar with MEP but when you import a video file into your project are you not able to bring up its properties and alter any "errors" such as Field Order and PAR?

OT - "Errors" can exist. I've had to deal with DVD vob files (not from Magix editors) that state they are progressive when of course they are interlaced. No problem when played on a DVD player as it treats them as interlaced but on a Blu-ray player which sees they are "progressive" so plays them as such and yuck - the image combing with movement was horrible!

As for the perceived quality loss with 1080 when re-rendering I agree it's not usually noticeable.

@ericlnz

The image isn't changed. The two fields are the same. It's just that they aren't taken from two periods in time but are from the same time. When read as an interlaced file (instead of progressive) the top field is used to create a full frame and the bottom field used to create another full frame. 

Eric, for that to work, you'd need to generate a duplicated frame for every frame, so you would be recoding the video.

The other technique, splitting each progressive frame into two fields, will also require a recode.

I'm not familiar with MEP but when you import a video file into your project are you not able to bring up its properties and alter any "errors" such as Field Order and PAR?

We can adjust those, yes, but in this case those are irrelevant. We're talking about converting a Progressive video to Interlaced. I'd be curious to see a Progressive video and then it's interlaced version created by Vegas.

@jak.willis

I also agree that, provided you keep the bitrate up, you won't have any quality problems caused by generation loss by having Magix recode your Progressive master to Interlaced for the Bluray disk.

AFAIK, you cannot do this, there is more to this

I can do it, and have done it, with several editing/DVD programmes including Vegas Pro, VMS and DVDA. The image isn't changed. The two fields are the same. It's just that they aren't taken from two periods in time but are from the same time. When read as an interlaced file (instead of progressive) the top field is used to create a full frame and the bottom field used to create another full frame. Because both fields are from the same time you get two identical frames, subject of course to the quality of the interpolation.

I'm not familiar with MEP but when you import a video file into your project are you not able to bring up its properties and alter any "errors" such as Field Order and PAR?

OT - "Errors" can exist. I've had to deal with DVD vob files (not from Magix editors) that state they are progressive when of course they are interlaced. No problem when played on a DVD player as it treats them as interlaced but on a Blu-ray player which sees they are "progressive" so plays them as such and yuck - the image combing with movement was horrible!

As for the perceived quality loss with 1080 when re-rendering I agree it's not usually noticeable.

@johnebaker @ericlnz

Just to point something out, even though the files are encoded in 1920x1080, they are actually not real 1920x1080, they are SD.

Basically, these are episodes of ‘Neighbours’ from the 1980’s, and so the content itself was shot on tape. So all that’s happened is it has been scanned or upscaled to 1920x1080. So seeing as the content itself is not really HD, I am worried that any quality loss will in fact be noticeable.

@jak.willis

Hi.

Every episode is available on Amazon Freeview with no need for a subscription. is the quality there not better than anything you can produce?

Ray.

@jak.willis

Hi.

Every episode is available on Amazon Freeview with no need for a subscription. is the quality there not better than anything you can produce?

Ray.

 

These ones are off of YouTube. They are not available anywhere else.

@johnebaker @ericlnz @AAProds

If I use the MainConcept encoder, I am able to change from 1080i to 1080p, and then it says it is planning to smart render all of the files, but when I actually start the process it immediately fails.

When attempting to burn to a Blu-ray Disc, I have noticed that the audio export setting is locked to AC3...but the audio of the source files is AAC...

So, as a test, I went back to the timeline and deleted the audio track of one of the episodes, then went back to the burn menu, where now it states it is planning to Smart Copy. But then when I begin the burn process, it immediately fails.

@jak.willis

Hi Jak

. . . . so the content itself was shot on tape. So all that’s happened is it has been scanned or upscaled to 1920x1080. So seeing as the content itself is not really HD, I am worried that any quality loss will in fact be noticeable. . . .

Film has to be scanned, whereas tape, which is an analog signal, has to be digitised to an encoded video format, the actual resolution, and whether p or i is set at the time of digitisation.

Did you download the video as 720p? If so how was the video upscaled/converted to 1920x1080 and was this conversion to Progressive (p) or Interlaced (i)?

. . . . . I am able to change from 1080i to 1080p, and then it says it is planning to smart render all of the files, but when I actually start the process it immediately fails. . . . .

Assuming the i and p are the correct way round for the 'from' and 'to' video files in the above statement, then you have introduced an unecessary step which takes you in the wrong direction for trying Smart Copy.

When using video that is 1080p (progressive) in the project, Smart copy will always fail when trying to burn Blu-ray, which as implemented in MEP/MMS/VDL is always 1080i so your source video files should be 1080i, however this does not guarantee that Smart Copy will work.

John EB

Did you download the video as 720p? If so how was the video upscaled/converted to 1920x1080 and was this conversion to Progressive (p) or Interlaced (i)?

No, I downloaded them as 1080p. I downloaded them from YouTube. I'm assuming the uploader did all the upscaling beforehand - hence why I was able to download in 1080p.

So basically there is no way round this problem?

When I try just exporting as a normal MPEG-4 H264 file, smart render won't work then either - even though it says it can and will do beforehand.

@jak.willis

Hello Jak,

Personally, I find smart copy a very complex topic. That's why I posed the question to Copilot (AI). This is the answer I received.

Perhaps @johnebaker can use this.

HTH

Rob

Never had smart-rendering work since the arrival of MPEG 4. MPEG 2 used to SR nicely years ago but that's obviously fallen by the wayside.

@jak.willis

Jak, I think you're worrying too much about quality loss. Do a test. On a short segment of one of your Neighbours videos, burn a Bluray to the Image Recorder (increase the bitrate to as high as the disk will take or max out around 15,000kb/sec). Open the ISO in Windows Explorer (WE will make it a drive similar to a DVD drive), in the Stream folder, locate the video and compare it with the original.

I wager you won't be able to tell the difference.

@jak.willis

When attempting to burn to a Blu-ray Disc, I have noticed that the audio export setting is locked to AC3...but the audio of the source files is AAC...

Unless things have changed recently AAC audio is not part of the Blu-ray/DVD specs, hence the reason it wants AC3 although PCM is also okay.