Recording from mini-DV camcorder - how to change field order?

MikaS wrote on 3/25/2020, 8:00 AM

Hi, I have an old-school problem. I have half a dozen mini-DV cassettes, recorded with Sony TRV22E PAL. I'm trying to capture them from camcorder (using firewire) to Windows 10 PC with Magix Movie Edit Pro (v18.0.3.261), then edit them with MEP, and then make DVD's with Adobe Encore.

I have now encountered problems with the field order of some of the captures. I assume that DV-AVI PAL should be bottom field first. And most of the captures are bff and their playback is fine. However, some of the captures are top field first, and the playback is jerky. I assume that MEP has misinterpreted the source as tff and therefore captured it in wrong field order.

Is there any way to manually force MEP to record a cassette as bff? I couldn't find such option in settings.

BTW, I tried to capture the same cassettes (or one of them) with Adobe Premiere, and it seem to interpret it correctly as bff. But I would rather do capturing and editing with MEP, because I find it easier.

Comments

johnebaker wrote on 3/25/2020, 1:26 PM

@MikaS

. . . . I assume that DV-AVI PAL should be bottom field first . . .

PAL can be either, are you are mixing 2 different sources of video and resolution eg standard DV and HD video?

DV (720 x 576 pixels) is bottom field first (BFF), HD (1280 x 720 pixels) is top field first (TFF).

John EB

MikaS wrote on 3/25/2020, 1:59 PM

Hi John, thank you for your answer.

All the cassettes are standard DV, recorded with the same Sony camcorder. And the strange thing is that MEP captures some of them as bff (correctly?) and some as tff (incorrectly?). And I would like to know if there is a setting or something, where I can choose the field order of the clips I'm going to capture.

As I said, I tried capturing one of those problem cassettes (which turned out tff in MEP) with Premiere, and the clips turned out bff. So I do have a way of doing the captures the hard way (capture with Premiere, then edit & export with MEP). But I'm more confortable editing with MEP, so I would preferably also do capture with it. But if there isn't a manual way to choose the field order, then I have to do it the hard way.

johnebaker wrote on 3/25/2020, 3:44 PM

@MikaS

I do not have a Firewire device on my PC, however you should find more advanced settings available in the DV capture dialog where there may be an option to manually select BFF - see page 89 onwards in the PDF manual available under Help.

The DV as MPEG option may help.

HTH

John EB

Scenestealer wrote on 3/25/2020, 4:37 PM

Hi @MikaS

I do not know a way of changing the Field order on capture but Magix seem to have pre empted your problem and created a method of changing the field order on clips in the timeline. Rt. Click > Object properties>Calculation of intermediate images>interlace properties (or some such). You would need to do this with with each incorrect object.

Peter

MikaS wrote on 3/26/2020, 8:11 AM

Thank you again for your replys!

John: The DV AVI capture dialog doesn't seem to have an option, where I could manually choose the field order. But the DV as MPEG dialog has such an option! So I'll try to capture the material as MPEG/bff. Hopefully that solves the problem.

Peter: I'm not sure if this solution works. I don't have a thorough understanding of the field orders, but I'm under the impression that if you change the field order AFTER you have captured the clips to your computer, you don't get proper results. I haven't done the changes that you suggested (=changing the field order of clips in timeline), but I have tried to change the field order when exporting the edited clips, ie. the original clips were tff, and I exported them as bff. The results were very jerky. But as I said, my understanding of the field order is very limited.

Scenestealer wrote on 3/26/2020, 3:41 PM

Hi Mika

This does work and do not worry this will only affect the way MEP reads the field order in the timeline. It will not alter your original clip as MEP is "non destructive" of original files.

It is a while since I have used interlaced video but from memory just setting a different order in the export settings did not work probably because it is reading the footage wrongly in the first place.

Peter

MikaS wrote on 3/27/2020, 4:40 AM

Thank you Peter,

your solution would be even more easier than the MPEG-solution. But there's still something that I don't understand:

The clips in the cassette have a correct field order (=bff). When I capture the clips to my computer, sometimes the clips have a wrong field order (=tff). Not only MEP, but also GSpot (a codec, media info etc. software) reads them as tff. Therefore I thought that the field order is a "fixed property" of the clips: if you change it anytime after you have captured the clips to your computer, you get jerky results. But am I wrong here? Can the field order still be "changed" safely (=no jerky results) in MEP the way you described?

Scenestealer wrote on 3/27/2020, 5:08 AM

Hi Mika

Can the field order still be "changed" safely (=no jerky results) in MEP the way you described?

Yes! There is no risk as I explained before.

The clip maybe correct but for some reason MEP is identifying it wrongly and the setting I described just tells MEP what it should be and the encoder makes it's decision based on that. Or, it may be wrong and needs a correction once in MEP but either way the important thing is that if it encodes wrong order then you need to change something in MEP ie in the clip properties so the encoder recognises it as the opposite.

The usual reason for error is if you have a mixture of TFF and BFF in the timeline and MEP tries to play all clips with the same field order.

NB.You can tell if the jerkiness is due to wrong field order by inching frame by frame through the exported material and you should see an object moving across the frame taking 2 steps forward and one back (or vice versa).

Peter

johnebaker wrote on 3/27/2020, 5:09 AM

@MikaS

. . . . also GSpot . . . reads them as tff . . . .

What does MediaInfo say the field order is?

MediaInfo is the preferred analysis tool it give a deeper analysis then GSpot - sad to see GSpot has not been updated for a long while - it does have some useful features.

An obvious question that we have missed is - what is your final destination for the video?

If exporting what export preset are you using?

If making disc which type DVD or Blu-Ray?

John EB

MikaS wrote on 3/27/2020, 12:29 PM

My final destination is DVD, which I make with Adobe Encore. When I'm done editing with MEP, I export the clips as MPEG (Standard DVD PAL Widescreen). This setting makes the clips ready for Encore and I don't have to transcode them in Encore.

I did this whole procedure with a couple of cassettes and then noticed the jerkiness when watching the DVD's. I hadn't payed any attention to the field orders during the procedures, but then I had to go back to original clips captured from the cassettes, and saw the field order problems in some of the clips. And then I posted my question here.

I have now edited one cassette using the "MPEG-trick", but I haven't done the DVD jet. I'll probably do that next, and then continue editing using the "Peter-trick".😉

I installed Mediainfo (thanks for the hint!) and checked some of the clips with it. Most of the clips, that were tff according to MEP and GSpot, were also tff according to Mediainfo. But strangely, two of those clips were bff according to Mediainfo.

Thankfully, these are my last mini DV cassettes. I bought a 4K camcorder a couple years ago, but I still had these cassettes from a few years ago to capture and make DVD's. And when I get them done, I don't have to fight with field orders ever again.😀

Thank you so much, both of you!