Speed - 8mm film scanned at 20fps - need 16fps

browj2 wrote on 12/7/2018, 11:45 AM

Somehow, VPX magically figures this out. My project is set up as NTSC, 29.97fps. The 8mm film is scanned at 20fps using the Wolverine Movie Maker Pro, at full HD, or rather 1440x1080. A standard 50 ft film takes about 4 to 4m30s at 16fps.

Before doing this, I did some research about how to get the clip to run in VPX at the correct speed. In one video that I watched, the guy imported the clip into Windows Movie Maker set up for 30fps (or maybe 29.97) and then made a speed adjustment of 16/30 = 0.5333. He never mentioned the fact that the clip was scanned at 20fps by his Wolverine, or at least I think it was, because that is what the Wolverine does by default.

When I import a scanned clip into VPX, the clip is about 3m35s long. If I use 0.5333 as the speed adjustment factor, then the length would be way beyond what it is supposed to be and it would be too slow. But, looking at the Speed dialogue with no adjustment, purely with the clip as imported, the frame rate shows as 20fps, exactly what it was recorded at. The adjustment to 16fps is 0.80. Wow! So simple. I was expecting something complicated.

Of course, if there is too much flickering, which was a problem with the 16fps speed of 8mm film. one can always increase it slightly. I doubt that anyone would notice.

So, if anyone is concerned about speed adjustment for 8mm and Super 8 file and the Wolverine scan at 20fps, don't be. Magix makes it simple.

Now for the editing and cleaning up part. Neat video is a must.

John CB

Comments

emmrecs wrote on 12/8/2018, 3:42 AM

Hi John.

Thanks for this post. I confess to knowing almost nothing about the transfer of 8mm film to video but it is something I have been asked by clients if I am able to do. Up to now, the answer was No, sorry!

Your mention of the Wolverine device set me off to research it! It is, apparently, available at quite a reasonable price (certainly, less than I might have expected, anyway) from Amazon UK, but the only reviews for it there are scathing, to say the least! However, the Amazon page does also list other possible machines, similar price, with rather more fulsome reviews. I just might be tempted! Much, very careful thinking to be done, especially since I have no films of my own to test on any machine .

Jeff

Win 10 Pro 64 bit, Intel i7 Quad Core 6700K @ 4GHz, 32 GB RAM, AMD Radeon R7 360 and Intel HD530 Graphics, MOTU 8-Pre f/w audio interface, VPX(8), MEP 2018, Music Maker 25, Photo Story Deluxe, Photo Manager Deluxe, Xara 3D Maker 7, Reaper, Adobe Audition CS6 and CC, 2 x Canon HG10 cameras, 1 x Canon EOS 600D

browj2 wrote on 12/8/2018, 8:55 AM

Hi Jeff,

Here is the link to the one that I purchased, the Pro model, 1080P, though not through Amazon. Look at the comments by Steve H. I wouldn't purchase the older version 720P, but so far, I find the 1080P to be very good.

There is a slight problem with the left spindle being lower than it should be and some emulsion or gunk comes off there. This can be avoided by not using the spindle. I'll have to do some tests both ways. I did scan with and without going around this spindle, but I didn't do the same film both ways.

https://www.amazon.ca/Wolverine-Digital-MovieMaker-Digitizer-MM100PRO/dp/B0785H3FGN/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1544276483&sr=8-1&keywords=wolverine+8mm

I purchased through B&H New York, as Wolverine does not ship internationally. I see that the price on Amazon has dropped a hundred dollars Canadian, but that is still about 100 CAD more than I paid. Including import duties (prepaid), it was 581 CAD vs 670 CAD with Amazon (import duty may be applicable on that).

I don't know that I would want to do this professionally.

I can't find the splicer gadget that I think I had for 8mm, but I have tape. Making splices by hand is not that great, but it at least allows me to splice on a leader or fix a break. Some of these old reels were abused by the projector - chewed up parts at the beginning, ripped sprocket holes, film breaks. I managed to a section that had been folded by the projector, through the Wolverine successfully but with slight distortions on some frames. Better than nothing, assuming that the images are interesting.

I am not equipped to fix sprocket hole damage and I just try to get the film through the gate by stopping, advancing a few frames past the damage, and then continuing on.

I am equipped for splicing Super 8, both with glue and tape, assuming that the 40+ year old glue still works.

One of the complaints is about splices sometimes causing a jam. This depends on the quality of the splices. I have now scanned 28 - 50ft reels and only had one problem with the splice half way through. The original reels are 25 ft. After getting through that, one had to turn the reel over whilst trying to avoid exposing the film to daylight. The film was split down the middle during processing and the ends spliced together, thus the half-way splice. Splices that I made years ago on the 8mm film are usually problematic. I haven't tested the Super 8 ones with the cement splices yet. I have had some problems with breaks, usually near the beginning, not caused by the machine. This is why it's good to run the film through an editor - to check for damage and clean at the same time.

The next thing is cleaning. I'm not equipped for this either. My old Goko Editor Viewer has a cleaning attachment, but the liquid (2.22 I think) evaporated years ago. I've been scanning without cleaning. Most of the reels have probably only seen a projector once or twice, so I haven't seen much dust and no mildew. I'm still looking for an appropriate cleaning-lubricating fluid.

My father's camera was an old Kodak. We had to guess at the aperture settings, manually. So, there are some reels overexposed, underexposed, sections that are black, sections that are completely light. My brother-in-law's camera was much better, and it shows. But, I have reels that are yellowish, redish and blueish.

The scans are quite grainy. Even looking at the little screen you can see this. However, some that were properly exposed are better, but still need fixing, hence the need for Neat Video.

Now for the editing. Cut out bad parts, fix the white balance, exposure, colour, etc. In my case, the reels often contain different subject matter, so they will be cut, labelled, documented and then put in the appropriate movie. I'm still trying to master this process. VPX and its Project Folder are a must. Clips can be placed in folders in the Project folder by subject, the names changed and/or description added. Then I can export the project folder, import it into a new project and put the clips from each folder into its own movie, or something like that. I have been making projects of 15 movies, 1 reel per movie, as a start. I'm also keeping a spreadsheet of the reel numbers, content and year, and problems that I may have had. Sometimes I have more than one file for a reel due to breaks or damaged sprocket holes. I number all of the reels and use that as the prefix for the filename. The Wolverine just gives a date and time filename, so I add the prefix manually.

Here is a link to the second reel that I scanned and edited. I quickly threw in some music to make it less boring. I was not very successful with Neat Video in the second half and there is still a lot of grain showing. I'll try again. I just wanted to get it up quickly so that my sister could see what I am doing.

John CB

 

 

emmrecs wrote on 12/8/2018, 10:23 AM

Hi John.

Many thanks indeed for all of that post!  It was especially "helpful" to see the results of the transfer to digital of that footage.

From my quite limited research so far it appears that, as you say, Wolverine do not ship outside USA/Canada, although Amazon UK offers this, but am not at all sure that actually is a Wolverine model and the reviews are less than complimentary!

It seems that in Europe, the equivalent manufacturer to Wolverine (perhaps even the same manufacturer, different name) is Reflecta, Amazon page here. I can actually buy that model at an even better price than Amazon so am sorely tempted!

Will let you know what I eventually decide to do.

Regards,
Jeff

Last changed by emmrecs on 12/8/2018, 10:23 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Win 10 Pro 64 bit, Intel i7 Quad Core 6700K @ 4GHz, 32 GB RAM, AMD Radeon R7 360 and Intel HD530 Graphics, MOTU 8-Pre f/w audio interface, VPX(8), MEP 2018, Music Maker 25, Photo Story Deluxe, Photo Manager Deluxe, Xara 3D Maker 7, Reaper, Adobe Audition CS6 and CC, 2 x Canon HG10 cameras, 1 x Canon EOS 600D

browj2 wrote on 12/9/2018, 7:29 PM

Hi Jeff,

I like the Reflecta. The wheel on the left side is properly located, whereas the one on the Wolverine is not, but I suspect that this was done to allow larger diameter reels on the Pro version, up to 9 inches. Looking at the right side, the Reflecta 3-wheel disposition is the same as the older version of the Woverine (720p), which probably means that the size of the take up reel is limited to 5 inches. This could pose a problem if you receive films on larger reels. I have a bunch of 7 and 8 inch reels.

Other than a slight difference in shape, I can't see any difference between the two machines. The various parts are probably identical.

I see that Reflecta has a cleaning liquid. It sounds like the right stuff. The other thing is a splicer for 8 and Super 8 film. The best would be with glue, not tape. Either way, you'll need to be able to splice both types. Watch some videos on cleaning and repairing film. Also, a roll of each type of leader may come in handy.

My splicer, now about 40 years old, is a Hähnel Motor Auto-Kolmatic Super 8. I see that there are images and videos of this on the web. Unfortunately, it doesn't do 8mm. The glue is Agfa Cinecol film cement.

My editor, for viewing, cleaning, marking film is a Goko Viewer Editor Dual 8. Optional but very handy if you want to clean and check the reels for damage. I see that there is one ebay for sale.

The next part is harder - Super 8 Sound. My method will be to run the film through the projector and capture the sound on the computer and at the same time record both image and sound with my camera. I have an Optex video transfer machine that uses a mirror and screen. The quality of the recorded image, of course, is not as good as the scan. Then I can use the camera AV recording and with the audio recording and the scanned file to line up the sound.

Let me know if you have any questions on this.

Regards,

John

 

wabu wrote on 12/10/2018, 3:01 AM

I myself (in Europe/Germany) had tested the recording from a Screen - not thinking about fps :-))

The results a useable.

I have seen the relecta machine at the "photokina" - in my opinion very expensive and very very slow.

My decision  at last was to use a comercial offer.

Look here.

and off topic

my last Video...

Have a good Xmas time :-))

wabu ...........................der nie auslernt Der Rechner: 2x DDR12GB Kingston KVR1333MHz CL9 / Intel Quad Core i7-950 3060 MHz Gainward nVidia GeForce GTX460 SE 1024MB DDR5, HDMI ; 2x DVI ; VGA, PCIe / Samsung HD103SJ F3 1 TB Sata 7200 / 2x LG GH22NS SATA schwarz / Windows Home Premium geschnitten wird seit 2007 mit VdL Primium bis heute und ProXseit Version 4 bis heute gefilmt mit Panasonic SDT 750 und FZ 1000 sowie Pentax K30 und einer Q500k und SJ 1000 fotografiert mit Pentax K19/Sigma 10-20 und 18-200; Fisheye und 500mm Spiegeltele youtube