Strange differences in Preview Rendering choices

CubeAce wrote on 1/30/2022, 8:00 AM

To be clear I am talking about preview rendering of selected parts of an existing project.

Not the use of creating proxy files within the project as such. Even doing that sometimes does not result in smooth playback when dealing with a 4K project on my system.

So.

I have a project using ten tracks of mixed audio and video. The project is very resource intensive due to the amount of tracks (14) and effects in use. I accept that some form of reduction of resources is needed to create a smooth playback on my system.

I have elements of video tracks that I want to start in sequence and in time to the music background that use five of the fourteen tracks.

I can match the start of each video track to the waveform of the music audio track as a rough guide to how it should play back but the playback even muting the other tracks or soloing the needed tracks results in a jerky playback with frames being dropped from various tracks at apparently random points on each playback pass.

So I solo each track in use and do a preview render. The result is still very jerky. But.

If instead I mute the unwanted tracks rather than solo the needed tracks, the playback is smooth as silk.

Why?

Both preview renders are created using the same amount of used tracks.

Both preview renders have the same amount of disabled tracks.

Even on playback, the Task Manager shows two different shared uses of the the Intel and nvidia GPUs as well as memory amount used and CPU usage.

The preview render that works flawlessly using muted tracks uses about half the amount of CPU cycles, just under1GB less motherboard ram, uses roughly 20% less processing on the nvidia card but the same amount of vram.and shares roughly the same amount of usage or resources between the Intel and nvidia GPUs. The difference seems to be that on the preview render that works the resources of the Intel chip remain steady at around 18% while on the preview render that isn't stable the resources of the Intel GPU bounced more between 16 to 24%.

I have no idea what conclusions to draw from this other than I should always mute unwanted tracks rather than solo needed ones.

But I also wonder if there are other implications to using solo over mute when editing within MEP.

I'm not really looking for answers but reporting an observed anomaly that could affect other people. Possibly it would not effect those with more powerful nvidia cards or a stronger system in general but could make a difference to those with lower end graphics cards and no Intel GPU to fall back on.

Ray.

Comments

johnebaker wrote on 1/30/2022, 9:41 AM

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

. . . . So I solo each track in use and do a preview render. The result is still very jerky. But.

If instead I mute the unwanted tracks rather than solo the needed tracks, the playback is smooth as silk.

Why? . . . .

The prerender is a substitute video file that is played for the rendered section instead of realtime rendering. Without testing, IIRC soloing a track and prerendering only renders that track to the render file, as you repeat the process the prerender file is overwritten, and the other tracks are being played back without pre-render.

. . . . If instead I mute the unwanted tracks rather than solo the needed tracks, the playback is smooth as silk. . . .

Muted tracks are ignored when preview rendering as in the final exporting.

The rest of what you are seeing is a result of the 2 different types of action and effects used ofr the different objects/tracks being pre-rendered.

HTH

John EB

CubeAce wrote on 1/30/2022, 10:04 AM

@johnebaker

Hi John.

I think I may have left out a crucial part of the information as I tried to explain the situation so sorry in advance.

I produced preview renders for both playback situations. I would have expected the results to be the same as I expected the preview render files to be the same. Unless you are saying that unless I mute a track it is still being processed during playback even though it is not visible using solo rather than mute.

[Edited / added]

The other thing I have just noticed is that the playback of the Solo enabled version that the nvidia card is pressed into Video Decoding during playback whereas on the muted track version the nvidia card does no video decoding at all.

Ray.

browj2 wrote on 2/1/2022, 8:20 AM

@CubeAce @johnebaker

Hi,

VPX13 v. 19.0.1.141

After my first euphoria at the smooth playback on the timeline, I am now very disappointed. Super computer, but really not much better results than with my +10-year old computer and VPX12. After seeing many posts about both MEP and VPX having playback problems, I am convinced that there is a problem with both programs.

Hardware acceleration: Import/Export - Intel UHD Graphics 630, Processing - NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060

This is an example of a problem:

Video clip is one of the standard ones used in most of my tutorials (1920x1080). No effects.

Using a Title template from Nature Collection (from the Store) and the first template, "Brush Stroke Intro" in a 29.97fps full HD project, playback stutters, a lot. Preview Rendering, still stutters a lot. Export, got light flashes on the entire image so I wasn't able to use this in my video.

Part of the problem is that the underlying videos (mask and coloured effect) for the title effect is 25fps. I got a vast improvement by exporting each to mxv from the 29.97 project and using them instead. No more flashes, improved playback with and without preview rendering.

I expect the 25fps effect to playback smoothly with Preview Rendering on. All Magix effects, and there are many, that contain video clips are 25fps and should playback smoothly especially with Preview Rendering on.

I am wondering if Preview Rendering even works.

I haven't tried this in MEP2022Premium, but I would expect the same result.

John CB

CubeAce wrote on 2/1/2022, 8:39 AM

@browj2 @johnebaker

Hi John.

Have you updated to today's patch yet?

I'm trying it out now.

21.0.1.119

Fixed: Error when switching graphics cards in certain situations.

Fixed: Error when importing AVI files having a width not divisible by 4.

Fixed: Export producing Upside Down videos when no effects are applied to rotated videos.

Fixed: Applying "Movie Looks Camera Lookup tables" to objects, no longer changes the image section when the resolution of the video monitor is smaller than that of the object.

Fixed: Green frames on 4K HEVC videos if working with NVidia decoder.

Fixed: Jerky playback/export on NVidia GPUs.

Improved: Reactivation of MVC export.

Improved: Faster loading in timeline mode.

Improved: Faster undo/redo.

Ray.

browj2 wrote on 2/1/2022, 8:44 AM

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

Yes, the patch that I indicated for VPX is the one that came out today. No change in playback with my NVidia for the example that I gave.

John CB

browj2 wrote on 2/1/2022, 9:12 AM

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

I just installed the patch on MEP2022 Premium and applied the same title template (not my modified version) to the same clip and, just to p me off, it plays back smoothly without preview rendering.

So then, why is VPX stuttering with the same thing?

EDIT: I think that I found the problem. With MEP, I have everything on one screen - 1920x1080 monitor. With VPX, I use 2 screens and playback is on the second screen (about 1/4 of the screen) which is UHD. I tried in MEP with the Preview Monitor on the second (UHD) screen, increased the sized to about 1/4 of the screen, and there was some stuttering, but not as bad as in VPX. I'll try VPX again with just one monitor.

EDIT again: Nope, VPX, with prerendering, default setup on 1920x1080 monitor, playback still stutters.

John CB

CubeAce wrote on 2/1/2022, 12:43 PM

@browj2 @johnebaker

Hi John.

I concur.

It is better than it was but not perfect on some material. Weirdly it seems to use less of either GPU of CPU than before and less vram, but a fare chunk more motherboard memory.

As for my initial problem. It seems it is having any track Soloed. If I preview render using both Solo and Mute and then switch the Solo buttons off it still plays back smoothly but with the Solo buttons left on and the other tracks remain muted, the same file plays with stutters but the timeline preview render bar stays green.

What happens if your source monitor is blank on playback? It's the only real difference I can think of between MEP and VPX. A shot in the dark I know.

I have MEP on my nvidia powered screen but can place the monitor view on the Intel powered one. Makes no difference to playback smoothness whether I use that full in screen or not.

Enabling that full screen playback in the settings so the second monitor shows full screen must be set to that monitors resolution in the movie project settings or it doesn't display properly.

That makes editing in 4K for me a bit difficult as I don't know then if the project is up-scaling HD to 4K or not, so I tend not to use my second monitor for that purpose.

Instead I click on the monitor panel within MEP to expand it when needed.

That gives me the cleanest output anyway, even with preview rendering.

Why all these variations in setup matter I have no idea and may not work on another system I guess.

Ray.

browj2 wrote on 2/2/2022, 8:42 AM

@CubeAce @johnebaker

Hi,

I should have added that my project in question is 22s long and it takes 50s for the export - just using the normal basic MP4 29.97fps 1920x1080 export settings. That is pitiful.

I have not seen any improvement in export time with this fancy new machine over my +10 year old machine. Something is wrong here.

John CB

CubeAce wrote on 2/2/2022, 9:34 AM

@browj2 @johnebaker

Hi John.

I may have found one of the many problems depending on how you set the program to run.

I got this message on one project recently while trying to do a preview render.

Guess what wasn't at the same resolution as the project files?

Yup. Some transition segments. That was using the HD 630 Intel graphics for rendering.

Also where are the preview rending settings to alter? There isn't any such section any more. It has gone.

So why that message? A leftover from the previous build?

Doesn't happen with the nvidia selected instead even though the Intel GPU is doing 3D rendering while I make a preview render. The render doesn't always go correctly, dropping elements of the project as they don't seem to load fast enough to be processed. It's the same on playback. You an play a project until you see a section not being rendered and stop at that point. Several seconds later the monitor refreshes and disk reads and writes,memory usage changes and what should be there appears in the monitor.

I think the whole concept of the Infusion Engine 3 should be scrapped. They fix one problem and another one or more is popping up in its place. IMO, Magix has dug itself into a hole. It has to release a new version to justify the yearly renewal requirement and we are getting under tested and underdeveloped software in return. Projects that used to run easily no longer run. That would not be so bad if new projects ran OK but they have the same problems with the same effects running. Magix also doesn't make it easy to go back to a previous earlier version.

It is probably down to profitability in the long run. If they need more developers then they have higher overheads and the cost of the programs will have to go up or we can carry on being their main beta testers.

To have to sit down and figure out why something has stopped behaving itself is draining as a user. I doubt it is the GPUs as they are hardly ticking over in use. I don't see any hardware deficiencies while the program is running. Nothing is approaching maxing out for more than fractions of seconds.

It is becoming very annoying.

Ray.

johnebaker wrote on 2/2/2022, 10:48 AM

Hi John

. . . . . I should have added that my project in question is 22s long and it takes 50s for the export - just using the normal basic MP4 29.97fps 1920x1080 export settings. That is pitiful. . . . .

Definitely something amiss there - this project, a custom collage I am working on, consists of all 4K video

is 18 secs 12 frames long and exports:

4K UHD 25 fps default settings - 1m 11secs

FullHD 25 fps default settings - 20 secs.

Import/Processing/Export options all set to the RTX 2060

John EB

johnebaker wrote on 2/2/2022, 11:06 AM

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

. . . . Also where are the preview rending settings to alter? There isn't any such section any more. It has gone. . . . .

Definitely gone, considering the options the Preview rendering settings offered they are 'limited'.

John EB

Former user wrote on 2/2/2022, 3:54 PM

is 18 secs 12 frames long and exports:

4K UHD 25 fps default settings - 1m 11secs

FullHD 25 fps default settings - 20 secs.

Import/Processing/Export options all set to the RTX 2060

John EB

@johnebaker Hi , can you tel me which collage that is, if it is a collage that is, & you say 4k, is that 3840x2160?

johnebaker wrote on 2/3/2022, 2:44 AM

@Former user

The collage template is a custom one I am making, needs some further work to get the final effect I am looking for.

The source videos are 4K UHD ( 3840 x 2160 ), and the mask images are 4400 x 4400 px to enable the rotation - making them square enables easier positioning and keyframing.

The method was put up as a tutorial by @terrypin and is here.

John EB

Scenestealer wrote on 2/3/2022, 4:55 AM

@CubeAce @johnebaker @browj2

That preview rendering error message seems completely nonsensical - preview rendering has nothing to do with export format and why would you want to be previewing at a different aspect ratio (or fps for that matter) than what your intended project / export settings were!!

. . . . Also where are the preview rending settings to alter? There isn't any such section any more. It has gone. . . . .

I don't recall there being any other settings available previously in MEP than those in your SS John.

That message looks like it has escaped from VPX where there are more options available.

Peter

johnebaker wrote on 2/3/2022, 7:12 AM

@Scenestealer

Hi Peter

. . . . preview rendering has nothing to do with export format . . . .

Up to and including MEP 2021/VPX11 (?) there was the option Use proxy files during rendering which became active when Best performance for DVD was selected - the usage is for when creating DVD's from higher resolution source video to reduce the render time.

John EB

Scenestealer wrote on 2/3/2022, 5:27 PM

@johnebaker @CubeAce

Hi John

Thanks, I see now that the whole setting box has been removed from MEP2022 which makes Ray's error message seem even more nonsensical, especially as he refers to his project files which appear to be 4K which should follow that his export settings would match (apart from the still image) - or were you trying to export to DVD or were your project settings set to DVD, Ray?

Peter

CubeAce wrote on 2/3/2022, 7:39 PM

@Scenestealer @johnebaker @browj2 @Former user

Hi Peter.

I am working purely in 4K or HD, projects dependent, but in the case above, 4K.

I agree, the above warning is nonsensical. Redundant. An ex, warning, leftover bit of coding, or worse. The warning is only tripped when having the Intel GPU in the settings mix on that project.

To make matters worse I have now tried all the elements used in that project on a new trial project and it not only exports with no problems but runs playback smooth as silk without having to result in using either proxy files or preview rendering. That at least is one saving grace of the new update.

This now makes more sense of the warning Magix gives to finish any existing project before updating the program as there appears to be no backwards compatibility between new and old projects for whatever reason.

If it was down to missing plugins or effects I could understand it but this is not the case and in my opinion, completely nuts as it would mean there is absolutely no reason to have to hang on to some completed projects that are anything other than basic edits. They have become redundant.

Very annoyed.

Ray.

johnebaker wrote on 2/4/2022, 3:54 AM

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

. . . . This now makes more sense of the warning Magix gives to finish any existing project before updating the program as there appears to be no backwards compatibility between new and old projects for whatever reason. . . . . it would mean there is absolutely no reason to have to hang on to some completed projects . . . .

The project files (MVP) appear to contain some settings for MEP/VPX and it may be these that is triggering the message.

If a plugins or effects is missing you get different error messages - for plugins the dialog indicates the plug-in is missing, for effects the message asks you to locate the effect, or effect component, or skip it.

To avoid issues between versions/upgrades of the program, which is also common with other software, I load an old project into the new version, export the movie(s) as MVD - these contain only the movie data, and then import the MVD into a new project and save it with a new name, thus eliminating any 'leftovers' from the old project.

John EB

CubeAce wrote on 2/4/2022, 10:25 AM

@johnebaker

. . . . This now makes more sense of the warning Magix gives to finish any existing project before updating the program as there appears to be no backwards compatibility between new and old projects for whatever reason. . . . . it would mean there is absolutely no reason to have to hang on to some completed projects . . . .

The project files (MVP) appear to contain some settings for MEP/VPX and it may be these that is triggering the message.

Hi John.

I have no idea about what is contained in those files but will give you suggestion below a try.

If a plugins or effects is missing you get different error messages - for plugins the dialog indicates the plug-in is missing, for effects the message asks you to locate the effect, or effect component, or skip it.

You are correct. I was messy in my last reply stating differently.

To avoid issues between versions/upgrades of the program, which is also common with other software, I load an old project into the new version, export the movie(s) as MVD - these contain only the movie data, and then import the MVD into a new project and save it with a new name, thus eliminating any 'leftovers' from the old project.

This I have now tried and has had no effect whatsoever. The same problems remain. It's as if some components are just not keeping up and not receiving or releasing data in time.

Starting a new project and saving it using the same effects and clips does not provide any problems. I don't even have to activate proxy files or pre-render (which is a better result than with the 2021 version) so I really don't know what is going on other than my initial reported observations that still leave me clueless.

Ray.