Well, I certainly seem to have sparked a lively discussion. Unsurprisingly most of it is well beyond me - but no matter, it has helped.

Simplest and quickest is to recapture those tapes I did with PotPlayer (giving the MKV files) directly into Video Deluxe, which I am coming to love :) I have already done this recapture for several tapes. Result is useable now but quality remains poor - but that is because all the original recordings are ancient and so are poor. Earliest are 35 years old, youngest 20 years old.

FYI, the later of these were recorded on Sony Handycam Hi8 - CCD-TRV67E PAL. The video capture hardware device I used was a cheap (£30 ish) "DIGITNOW!" buy from Amazon. But I have also used a more complicated set-up to give an MP4 output on some of the older tapes; and 5-10 years ago I used some other box of tricks to convert tape to DVD. In all cases quality is pretty poor - but at least I have it.

I do a lot of stills photography and have for 15 years, and the advances in editing and making post capture improvements to these has been quite amazing and will improve a lot further I am certain. I am sure the same is possible for video too, but probably a way behind (?) because more complex task. I need to explore VD as I am aware there are AI tools emerging to help with this. Similarly with sound.

Main thing is I have my tapes and they are now safe from further degradation or destruction/loss of the physical tapes and from obsolescence of equipment to play them on.

This is all part of the learning curve. I can now do the basics I set out to achieve - transfer from tape to disk, then chop up different files and recombine into a single project, reorder/rearrange scenes/snippets within that, and output as a file on a removable USB stick to plug in and play on TV monitor. So - great. And you guys all helped me to keep persevering rather than abandoning MAGIX, which I was considering doing, from frustration against a deadline. That would not have helped I am sure!

Thanks to you all for your suggestions. And I certainly know where to come if I ever get another problem!

All best, G

@Gra_Ham

Hi

. . . . In all cases quality is pretty poor  . . .

That will be the case with Hi8 recordings of this era, the maximum definition was 720 x 576 (PAL) or 720 x 480 (NTSC) ie DVD quality.

Given the age of the tapes I am surprised that you got what you did, magnetic tape media has a limited lifespan.

. . . . Main thing is I have my tapes and they are now safe from further degradation or destruction/loss of the physical tapes and from obsolescence of equipment to play them on. . . . .

Assuming you are referring to the digitised video files now on your computer disk, have you made multiple backups eg to external drives, to DVD or BluRay disks?

If not I would suggest you do, as computer disk drives can fail or corrupt through wear and tear, failure and computer crashes see this article.

I archive my important video/images and other files to external hard drives and good quality BluRay disks.

John EB

@Gra_Ham

In all cases quality is pretty poor

I've digitised some Video8 tapes in the last couple of years and they've come out great so don't believe the naysayers. I suggest you play a tape to the TV (Yellow Video Out + RCA audio cables) and see how it looks. If it's better than what you've got already, you could have a crack at using that dongle + Magix to capture them using the MXV format, then "Export Movie" to MP4.

@AAProds @johnebaker

Thanks both.

Can never be reminded too often about backing up - I do it, but need to keep on top of that.

And will play direct from tape to TV for comparison - good check/starting point

@AAProds

Hi Al

What effects/enhancements do you typically apply to upscaling from SD to HD or FullHD to improve the image quality?

Without using 3rd party plugins, pre or post processing outside of the video editor, I find MMS/VDL and VPX are restrictive in some of the tools/effects capabilities, eg sharpening has no options for the different types of sharpening available in other editors eg High Pass and Unsharp mask.

John EB

@johnebaker

What effects/enhancements do you typically apply

John, not much really. I deinterlace outside Magix, but the Magix double-rate deinterlacing, for tape captures, isn't bad. I adjust the colours and brightness/contrast in Magix and export at whatever size I want (I use 1440x1080 normally). I sharpen to 65 using the New Blue (?) sharpener.

I do use the NeatVideo plugin for noise reduction.

@Gra_Ham @johnebaker

A quick DV capture from a Video8 tape of 1993 I just did. Captured via Firewire by Magix Video Deluxe 2026. No processing except movie frame rate set to 50fps to take advantage of the deinterlacing process of VDL.

Please excuse my Pommie mate's jerky video! 😀

It's a crab cooker...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G4ezN5zbTnjEj3TMsTtcKzQiSuWNcFVo/view?usp=sharing

Here's the same video captured using a GV-USB2 dongle and S-Video from a TRV110E:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IN6yEiWgOxsuKzwV_4SjLwX69rO7Rm7-/view?usp=sharing

@AAProds

Thanks for your samples. I own a Sony TRV120E and have converted all my NTSC, PAL, 8mm and Hi8 tapes using it. Can I assume the capture with the GV-USB2 was to Magix MXV format?

Watching your two video clips there is no noticeable difference between the two captures so either method would be acceptable in my opinion. If I had to decide between the two clips, I probably would lean towards the DV AVI capture in this instance. The DV video appears to have slightly more contrast than the GV-USB2 capture which I personally like because the video looks slightly sharper. Of course, you can adjust the contrast in the proc amps of the GV-USB2 to match that of the DV AVI if desired. I also noticed a "glitch" around 15 seconds on the GV-USB2 capture. It appears just after the speaker says; "And this thing here." This glitch is not apparent in the DV AVI capture. I'm wondering if this was a "one off" which sometimes happens or does the analog to DV AVI conversion play a role? I wouldn't think so, but my TRV120E does have a time base corrector (TBC). Does the TRV110E have one as well? Was it turned on?

As for post processing these tapes after capture, as you mentioned, NeatVideo is a good plugin to have. Also I would recommend Topaz labs.

@Can-Dive

Can I assume the capture with the GV-USB2 was to Magix MXV format?

Can, yes it was. I found that glitch; I think it's a one-off. It didn't appear on another couple of captures.

Does the TRV110E have one as well? Was it turned on?

No such animal on the 110E.

@AAProds @Can-Dive

Interesting - thanks. Just confirms this is/was old technology, great at time, and fine on small screens. At least I now know the poor quality of many of mine is unlikely to be result of anything I am doing wrong, or have done wrong.

Here's another: MKV won't import but edit the extension to MP4 and Magix accepts it (after a brief delay while it reads it, I assume).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JlZXYdo5n8ToASLg_HljRR00v1sxRn27/view?usp=sharing

@AAProds

HI

. . . . Here's another: MKV won't import but edit the extension to MP4 and Magix accepts it . . . .

No import on my 'clean' laptop.

The prior TRV120E samples import fine.

John EB

@AAProds

I tried you new file but it would not import as MKV or MP4. I'm using MMS2024 and VPX16. You must have something installed on your computer that allows you to import the file as an mp4.

Your suggestion to @Gra_Ham to recapture his video's using MXV as an intermediate codec is good advice. The advantage of this workflow is its simplicity. He can capture, edit and export all in one system. Also, the examples you provided using firewire and the GV-USB2 convinced him (and me) that he is not really losing anything with this workflow. When I visually compared the two videos, I was really being nitpicky to find any differences which were very minor. I guess the only unknown factor for @Gra_Ham to consider is how his DIGITNOW compares to the GV-USB2 so he may want to invest in one to determine if his captures do improve with the GV-USB2.

Some "purists" may argue against using the MXV codec because its proprietary to Magix but I think the workflow's simplicity and timesaving counters this argument. Plus, if necessary, @Gra_Ham can always export the MXV to another intermediate lossless AVI codec if he wants to use another editor for whatever reason. So the use of MXV is not that limited in my opinion. I've watched countless YouTube videos of people employing multistage captures to extract the best quality video from an analog tape. I have yet to be convinced that the time and effort to further tweak the video quality is really worth it for the visual gain but admittedly it's a passionate hobby for some.

If @Gra_Ham is capturing a lot of tapes, my recommendation is to clean the camcorder's tape head on a regular basis. These tapes are old and tend to leave deposits on the head which will create artifacts on subsequent captures. Cleaning the head on my camcorder certainly helped with my captures. There are 8mm cleaning tapes you can still purchase on ebay, surprisingly, but they are now very expensive and I'm not sure how effective they are due to the age of the cleaning tape. I ended up using camera sensor swabs with a 100% isopropyl alcohol. Here is a video outlining the procedure.

All, I worked out the issue with that latest file (I should have checked before posting it): it is really an AVI with the HUFFYUV codec. Why it was made an MKV I don't know (not my doing), nor do I know why Magix opened it when it was an MP4 (I do have the HUFF codec on my system).

@Can-Dive

Good advice there, Candive. Certainly there is a point of diminishing returns on effort/cost verses end-result.

Hi @AAProds

I do have HuffyYUV 2.1.1 installed on my machine and I can export it using MMS2024 as an AVI file which can be read by the system (obviously, since it created it). I renamed your HuffyYUV from MKV to AVI but didn't have the same success. I also rewrapped a video file into a MKV container using Shutter Encoder. Again, MMS2024 was able to read this file.

What program did you use to create this file?

@Can-Dive

What program did you use to create this file?

It was posted on VideoHelp as part of a restoration discussion.

Thanks for all your comments - still following them - all helps.

@Can-Dive - cleaning head might be an idea, so long as no risk of damage. I have a bit under 60 hours of tape in total - does that count as a lot? Maybe not? However, over time I may capture all these twice in attempt to reduce chance of a capture via one method not being readable by other applications - as happened with PotPlayer and I think you are suggesting may happen with Magix. I would like these to remain readable many years from now and if I decide to switch editor one day as tech develops. May be overkill, but will think on. No hurry.

cleaning head might be an idea, so long as no risk of damage. I have a bit under 60 hours of tape in total - does that count as a lot?

@Gra_Ham, I'll look in my files. I remember I made notes to myself when I went through this whole process. I think I cleaned the drum every 10 hours. I think I had about the same number of hours as you. If your captures are clean then you may not have this problem. Some of my tapes were degrading to such an extent that they were leaving particles on the head. If I find my notes, I'll share them in a following post. Also you may want to fast forward and reverse you tapes, just to loosen them up before capture.

over time I may capture all these twice in attempt to reduce chance of a capture via one method not being readable by other applications

Yes, you may want to do that which would involve other capture software such as Virtual Dub, AmeracTV with lossless codecs such as Lagarith or UT Video. There are a number of YouTube video's outlining different methodologies. Also @AAProds, has a website dedicated to analog capture which is an excellent resource:

https://www.aaproductions.net/index.htm

But even with these codecs, the future isn't guaranteed. Will future editors cater for them? Also, different capture methodologies are being developed and tested using modern equipment (eg via HDMI). Then there is the Domesday project if you really want to go down the analog rabbit hole.

My comment regarding Magix's proprietary codec MXV was that it's not necessarily limited because you could install Lagarith (as an example) and export to this codec without the need to recapture. When I converted my tapes, my problem was I had both PAL and NSTC formats. I either had to purchase two different camcorders or find one that could play both types of tapes. Fortunately, I was able to purchase a used Sony camcorder which could play both file types. Since I had an old desktop with a firewire card, I decided to use this approach and capture all tapes to DV AVI. DV AVI is a lossy codec but it's pretty ubiquitous and the standard for digital tape camcorders. All editors can read DV AVI, and I use the source file in my edits which minimises generational loss. Some would argue that with DV AVI, you are stuck with Sony's colour science since there is no access to the proc amp settings but as @AAProds demonstrated, there really wasn't much difference between the two sample captures he shared.

I did capture my tapes twice. My camcorder had a TBC (time base corrector) and DNR (digital noise reduction) and one set is with these two features turned on and another set with these two features turned off. Interestingly I use the set of videos with the features turned off. The videos were just as stable and ever so slightly sharper. From my experience, these camcorder videos were much more stable than VHS which in many cases do require a TBC. Maybe the technology improved over the years.

Good luck with your conversion. The important objective is to just get it done so you can share these wonderful memories with family and friends. 🙂

@Gra_Ham, here are my notes on cleaning. I completed the project in 2017.

Initially I used a Sony cleaning tape which was good for digital recordings but as I subsequently learned, not so good for analog 8 mm or Hi8. This is probably due to digital capture being a series of zeros and ones which is probably more forgiving than trying to translate an analog signal into 0's and 1's.

When I played my digital captures the video was perfect. And when I played my 8mm or Hi8 there were artifacts throughout some of the tapes. Initially I thought time had taken its toll since some of the tapes are 27 years old. The Fuji brand also seemed worse that the Sony brand of tapes.

Interestingly, playing the bad captured files on VLC and turning on deinterlacing helped reduce the artifacts.   

Anyway, rather than use my cleaning tape solely, I decided to manually clean the rollers and drum. And this made a dramatic difference to the quality of the video. It eliminated the artifacts completely.   

Based on a number of forums, the gold standard for cleaning the video drum seems to be 100% isopropyl alcohol (99.8%) and chamios swaps. I found it hard to source these swabs but I was able to source camera sensor cleaning swabs which I use for the drum and a chamios cloth or makeup applicator wands to clean the rollers. The applicator wands either have a foam or felt tip. It's recommended that water should only be used on rubber rollers since alcohol is too harsh and can dry out the roller making it brittle. That is kind of hard to do in a camcorder since the rubber roller tends to touch other metal rollers you are cleaning with alcohol. I think my model came out in 2001, 16 years ago and fortunately the rubber is still good.

To get access to these parts you need to remove the plastic side panel which is attached with 2 small screws.    

My recommendation is to clean the head and rollers after 10 hours of capture. Some my think that is excessive and it may be for digital video as explained above but for analog the machine really needs to be clean for best results.

Once the cleaning is completed, screw back the side panel to protect the guts from dust and let is sit for a while to dry. I usually wait at least 20 minutes or leave the machine overnight.  Then take an empty tape and record for a minute and then play back your recording. It should be clean. This helps re-align all mechanisms that you touched in your cleaning and may pickup any residual moisture before subjecting your valuable family tapes to the machine.

This last step is important since after one clean, I started capturing a video and 3 big gray bars appeared in the video. I tried another tape and the same thing happened. I thought I had broken the camcorder! I then proceeded to use an empty tape to record and play back and everything went back to normal.