VPX - I want to record and edit for Youtube and use Smart Render?

CptSpaceToaster wrote on 9/7/2020, 7:35 PM

Ahoy! I recently purchased and installed Video Pro X from the latest Humble Bundle. I'd like to think my flow is pretty simple. I record video game footage with OBS, make edits in an editor occasionally, and then upload to Youtube. Because Youtube is the only destination, I can actually rely on Youtube's processing step to render the final pass of the video. Youtube processes every incoming video regardless, so just uploading unedited source footage works out really well! Obviously I can't edit anything if I just take whatever source footage I get from OBS and uploaded it immediately, and rely on Youtube to reencode everything, so that's where Video Pro X might come into play.

I really enjoy the editor, but encoding a longer section of footage takes ages on my hardware. I think I should be able to speed up everything if I'm able to use smart rendering when I make edits. For the majority of the clips, I don't need the source footage to be reencoded. I'm totally ok re-rendering the sections I make edits to, but I want the editor to just re-use the existing GOP sections if I didn't change anything about them. I've looked into Smart Rendering and Smart Copying in the manual, but I can't seem to make heads or tails out of anything. I'm unsure if it's supported, possible, or just incredibly complicated to setup.

Currently, I use NVENC while recording 1080p 60fps footage with a CBR of 15Mbps in an mkv container. Which ends up making stuff with this MediaInfo

If I try making a project with only one clip however, I can't seem to get anything to smart render... or even smart copy, and I don't know what to do.

My current steps:

  1. Start a new project
    1. 1920x1080 60fps using the BT.709 color space.
  2. Import a clip
    1. Concerningly, the import dialog claims that the resolution and framerate are the same, yet the footage doesn't match. I usually click "Do not adjust"
      1. If I click "Adjust", the project mysteriously changes to 20fps using the BT.601 color space for no understandable reason... nothing is 20fps, and nothing uses BT.601. MediaInfo backs that up, so that's either a bug, or something I just don't understand.
  3. File -> Export Movie -> Video as MPEG-4
    1. Verify that the settings align with what MediaInfo says the source footage uses.
    2. The advanced settings don't make any sense. I should be able to select CBR, but unfortunately, I can only export with VBR, so there's no hope of matching anything... Aditionally, Smart Copy is just unchecked and I have no idea what I'd need to do to be able to check that box.
  4. Rending a two minute clip takes upwards of four :( and the file is clearly being re-rendered.

Repeating the steps with the MPEG Video menu option allows me to select CBR at least, but trying to match the settings seems to once-again not actually smart render anything.

Ideally, smart rendering would allow this export to be made incredibly quickly without having to burn time doing anything serious as it's just copying the source file over into a new container while re-encoding audio.

Here's the clip in question if anyone wants to download it and follow my steps.

  1. Is smart rendering MPEG-4 content possible?
    1. On AMD?
  2. Do I need to record my source footage differently?
  3. Are there different project settings somewhere in VPX that I missed?
  4. Is there another editor that allows this instead?

Computer:

  • Motherboard: MSI X370
  • CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 1700X Eight-Core Processor
  • GPU: NVidia GeForce GTX 1070
  • RAM: DDR4 16GB 3200MHz (Team T-Force DARK)
  • No external sound card

Microsoft Windows

  • Version 1903 (OS Build 18362.1016)

Software:

  • Magix Video Pro X 
    Version 17.0.3.68 (UDP3)

I also have other versions of vegas installed, but I understand I'd need to go to the other forums to ask questions there. But I'd really prefer VPX if I could get this to work somehow.

  • Vegas Pro 14 (Build 270) 64-bit
  • Movie Studio 16 (Build 175)
     

Comments

CubeAce wrote on 9/7/2020, 8:06 PM

@CptSpaceToaster

Hi Cap!

As I have been recently told myself, Smart render only works when exporting files as MPEG-2. Then you should see the smart render option turn up. Primarily used for DVD burning I think. Page 330 of the pdf manual.

Ray.

Windows 10 Enterprise. Version 20H2 OS build 19042.844. Direct X 12. Bios version 1401 latest hardware updates for Western Digital hard drives. Page file space 4.75GB.

Asus ROG STRIX Z390-F Gaming motherboard Rev 1.xx with Supreme FX inboard audio using the S1220A code. Driver No 6.0.8960.1

Intel i9900K Coffee Lake 3.6 to 5.1GHz CPU with Intel UHD 630 Graphics .Driver version 27.20.100.9168, with 32GB of 3200MHz Corsair DDR4 ram.

1000 watt EVGA modular power supply.

1 x 250GB SSD D: drive for current project. 1 x 250GB SamSung Evo 970 drive for Operating System. + x2 WD BLACK 2TB internal SATA 7,200rpm hard drives.I for internal backup and 1 for Library clips/sounds/music/stills. Total 12TB of four external WD drives for backup.

Gigabyte NVIDIA G Force GTX 1650 Super . nVidia driver version 460.89: 1280 CUDA cores Direct X 12. Memory interface 128bit Memory bandwidth 192.03GB/s 4GB of dedicated GDDR6 video memory, shared system memory 16307MB PCi Express x16 Gen3.

Running MEP Premium 20.0.1.79. and VPX 17.0.3.68 (UDP3)

M Audio Axiom AIR Mini MIDI keyboard Ver 5.10.0.3507

CptSpaceToaster wrote on 9/7/2020, 9:26 PM

Thanks so much for reaching out. I figured the MPEG-2 might be where I need to look next, but I still have some questions!

I can't just slam my clip into a new project and render using the MPEG-2 renderer and match the settings. That still seems to re-render everything.I'm not sure if MPEG-2 can even smart-render MPEG_4/AVC footage... but that's my hope.

I can't seem to find the button from the manual titled "encoder settings" anywhere. I'm guessing it's either not going to show up if I'm jamming AVC footage into my timeline... or I'm just a little slow and unable to figure out where it's hiding.

Unless it's just the menu that pops up when I File -> Export as -> Video as MPEG Video/

In that case... not a single mention of "Smart Render" seems to be anywhere. Aside from the advanced menu, which only has a checkbox for "Smart Copy" that's permanently disabled still.

  1. Am I just stupid and missing where the button for "Encoder settings" seems to be hiding?
    1. If yes... then how can I export with those settings? I'm not really seeing a separate menu option that would let me use new encoder settings anywhere.
  2. Do I need to drastically change how I'm recording footage so it's already MPEG-2? I'm not exactly sure that's going to work with my other goals (streaming to Twitch) but I'd be willing to mess with it and give it a go. I'm definitely in the market for something that can smart-render the MPEG_4/AVC footage I'm already setup to stream and record, but I'll settle if need be.
CubeAce wrote on 9/8/2020, 3:26 AM

@CptSpaceToaster

Hi Cap.

Unfortunately you are correct. Smart render is not for MPEG-4 export use.

As for the rest of the information you need, that is outside of my personal user experiences and you really need a reply from John Baker, John Brown, or one of the other guys that deal more with those file types as they would know more about that side of things.

Ray.

Windows 10 Enterprise. Version 20H2 OS build 19042.844. Direct X 12. Bios version 1401 latest hardware updates for Western Digital hard drives. Page file space 4.75GB.

Asus ROG STRIX Z390-F Gaming motherboard Rev 1.xx with Supreme FX inboard audio using the S1220A code. Driver No 6.0.8960.1

Intel i9900K Coffee Lake 3.6 to 5.1GHz CPU with Intel UHD 630 Graphics .Driver version 27.20.100.9168, with 32GB of 3200MHz Corsair DDR4 ram.

1000 watt EVGA modular power supply.

1 x 250GB SSD D: drive for current project. 1 x 250GB SamSung Evo 970 drive for Operating System. + x2 WD BLACK 2TB internal SATA 7,200rpm hard drives.I for internal backup and 1 for Library clips/sounds/music/stills. Total 12TB of four external WD drives for backup.

Gigabyte NVIDIA G Force GTX 1650 Super . nVidia driver version 460.89: 1280 CUDA cores Direct X 12. Memory interface 128bit Memory bandwidth 192.03GB/s 4GB of dedicated GDDR6 video memory, shared system memory 16307MB PCi Express x16 Gen3.

Running MEP Premium 20.0.1.79. and VPX 17.0.3.68 (UDP3)

M Audio Axiom AIR Mini MIDI keyboard Ver 5.10.0.3507

johnebaker wrote on 9/8/2020, 4:03 AM

@CptSpaceToaster

Hi

. . . . missing where the button for "Encoder settings" seems to be hiding . . . .

There are 2 locations depending on which section of the manual you are referring to:

  1. Program settings Import/Export tab where you have a choice of Default and if it is installed MainConcept encoder
     
  2. In any export dialog - click the Advanced button.

Changing the default export settings for the different export formats and resolutions is not necessary they are already optimised for quality vs file size and destination.

In the export dialog ensure you check the Display all option to see all available resolutions/frame rate and sepcial export presets.

MKV file import fine in VPX - the issue is you have no hardware acceleration for exporting as mp4 h.264 for that you need an Intel processor with integrated GPU, as mentioned in the VPX specification/system requirements.

If you export as HEVC then the GTX 1070 should accelerate the export.

For mp4 export you could also try installing the Main Concept codec - Help, Install extra content it should be listed there and setting this as the default codec as in 1 above.

HTH

John EB

 

Last changed by johnebaker on 9/8/2020, 4:04 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Lateral thinking can get things done!

VPX 12, MEP Premium 2021, and earlier versions 2015 and 2016, Music Maker Premium 2021.

Running Windows 10 Professional 20H2 64bit on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16GB RAM, RTX 2060 6GB 192-bit GDDR6, 3 x 2Tb internal HDD + 60GB internal SSD, + 6 ext backup HDDs, Sony FDR-AX53 Video camera, Contour HD 1080 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

CptSpaceToaster wrote on 9/8/2020, 11:03 AM

@CubeAce Thank you so much for the clear answer. I'll take a look at other workflows to see if I can at the very least, improve my export flow.

@johnebaker Thank you for your dedication to these forums. Your answers (among everyone else's) make these forums an amazing resource. I wouldn't have asked anything without seeing active posts, and good answers.

If I'm going to continue with VPX, it sounds like I'm going to have to settle with re-rendering all of my footage for any edit and find down-time where I can let the fans spin AFK. It sounds like I'll be able to somewhat efficiently export as HEVC and rely on hardware acceleration, but since Youtube won't accept h.265 content I don't think I'll be able to rely on HEVC for what I'd like to do.

I think my best path forward here is to experiment with the Main Concept codec in hopes to achieve some level of hardware acceleration when exporting to something using h.264.

  1. I installed the Main Concept encoder from the Help, Install extra content menu option and restarted VPX
  2. I swapped over to the Main Concept encoder in the File -> Settings -> Program -> Import/Export tab. The dialog said something about restarting, so I restarted VPX again just to be on the safe side.
  3. At this point, I was a little unsure how to make sure I'm actually using the thing, but I think I figured it out. File -> Export movie -> Video as MPEG-4
    1. The first menu was still the same, but the advanced menu is wildly different.
  4. Leaving everything on default settings, my 2-minute clip took the requisite 3+ minutes to render which is fine all things considered... but this seems like unexplored territory that might be worth twiddling to see if I can find some speedups here.

In the advanced menu, there was a checkbox for Hardware acceleration, but selecting it causes the export to be canceled due to an unknown error.

There is a button for more information, but clicking it just opens my browser to a website claiming to not exist: https://support2.magix.com/customer/en/hwacceleration

  1. Where can I get more information about this encoder? I can continue playing around with it, but I think I would also like to read a little more about what I'm trying to tinker with here... specifically trying to enable proper hardware acceleration.
    1. It seems like I'm on the right path to enable hardware acceleration, but there's a lot of ???'s and errors right now. I can also try and continue my quest for more information once I get more time and search for documentation about the Main Concept encoder.
  2. Am I done? Is this as far as the forums can take me? If so, I want to thank everyone again for being an incredible help. I appreciate all of your time and attention.
johnebaker wrote on 9/8/2020, 11:35 AM

@CptSpaceToaster

Hi

. . . . Youtube won't accept h.265 content . . . .

That is not YT say here.

. . . . MainConcept encoder . . . . Where can I get more information about this encoder? . . .

See this comment by @Scenestealer (Peter), in particular his recommendations in the last half of the 4th paragraph which I whole heartedly agree with.

Peter - you may convert me yet if it offers faster export times on my RTX.

John EB

Last changed by johnebaker on 9/8/2020, 11:36 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Lateral thinking can get things done!

VPX 12, MEP Premium 2021, and earlier versions 2015 and 2016, Music Maker Premium 2021.

Running Windows 10 Professional 20H2 64bit on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16GB RAM, RTX 2060 6GB 192-bit GDDR6, 3 x 2Tb internal HDD + 60GB internal SSD, + 6 ext backup HDDs, Sony FDR-AX53 Video camera, Contour HD 1080 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

CubeAce wrote on 9/8/2020, 11:37 AM

@CptSpaceToaster

Hi Cap!

I know YouTube says it doesn't / didn't accept HEVC uploads but it does. Same as Flickr, that also says it doesn't accept HEVC. It may take long to render once up but I've had no problems so far.

Smart copy is not a re-render as such, there is no compression involved. As far as I can make out it is alterations to the GOP structure so joins work with some header file alterations and a few other things I'm not sure of. That's why the source files can't be mixed types as far as I understand it.

Hardware acceleration will only be enabled for HEVC exports if you don't have an Intel GPU as well.

Ray.

Last changed by CubeAce on 9/8/2020, 11:40 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Windows 10 Enterprise. Version 20H2 OS build 19042.844. Direct X 12. Bios version 1401 latest hardware updates for Western Digital hard drives. Page file space 4.75GB.

Asus ROG STRIX Z390-F Gaming motherboard Rev 1.xx with Supreme FX inboard audio using the S1220A code. Driver No 6.0.8960.1

Intel i9900K Coffee Lake 3.6 to 5.1GHz CPU with Intel UHD 630 Graphics .Driver version 27.20.100.9168, with 32GB of 3200MHz Corsair DDR4 ram.

1000 watt EVGA modular power supply.

1 x 250GB SSD D: drive for current project. 1 x 250GB SamSung Evo 970 drive for Operating System. + x2 WD BLACK 2TB internal SATA 7,200rpm hard drives.I for internal backup and 1 for Library clips/sounds/music/stills. Total 12TB of four external WD drives for backup.

Gigabyte NVIDIA G Force GTX 1650 Super . nVidia driver version 460.89: 1280 CUDA cores Direct X 12. Memory interface 128bit Memory bandwidth 192.03GB/s 4GB of dedicated GDDR6 video memory, shared system memory 16307MB PCi Express x16 Gen3.

Running MEP Premium 20.0.1.79. and VPX 17.0.3.68 (UDP3)

M Audio Axiom AIR Mini MIDI keyboard Ver 5.10.0.3507

CptSpaceToaster wrote on 9/8/2020, 12:31 PM

@johnebaker

. . . . That is not YT say here . . . .

Great catch. My rushed check this morning pulled up old comments and complaints from 3+ years ago when that wasn't the case. Thank you for the gentle reminder, and knowing that YT happily takes these now. I should take a more detailed look at HEVC exports and compare export times.

. . . . his recommendations in the last half of the 4th paragraph . . . .

we recommend that it is best for most users to stick with the presets.

Noted. I still would at the very least, like to be able to check the "hardware encoding box" without errors, but that adventure will have to happen later when I have more time to look up information about the MC encoder, and what might be going wrong there.

@CubeAce

. . . . Smart copy is not a re-render . . . .

. . . . That's why the source files can't be mixed types . . . .

I would like to think I'm vaguely aware of what smart-rendering should be able to do for me, however it seems like all avenues for smart rendering are going to have to ignored or marked not-possible in VPX if the source footage I have on hand is h.264.

I've been trying in vain to import a single 2-minute clip into VPX and export it in various ways in hopes that I can just get VPX to detect that no changes are being made, and the entire clip would be smart-copied into the new container. This feature exists in other editors like TMPGEnc MPEG Smart Render 5. By combining 3 clips together, I was able to "export" a 6 minute video with incredibly light editing in under 🔥30 seconds 🔥 (linked at the end), but the entire editing experience from TMPGEnc is lackluster and definitely feels more like a proof-of-concept editing pipeline built around the feature of smart-rendering. I was just hopefully grasping at staws in VPX trying to see if it would allow something similar to occur when I saw the disabled checkboxes in the advanced menus.

Everything I've read and experimented with has indicated that smart rendering is possible, but VPX doesn't support it for the footage I'm creating. Despite the "Smart Copy" checkbox showing up in all of the advanced menus, I don't even think that "smart copying" would even help if I wanted to crossfade two clips together, add a title, or a fade in/out. That would likely prevent the entire clip from being "smart copied"... unless there's just loose terminology being used here, and smart-copying isn't a lesser feature, and it actually means "smart render". If I somehow found a magical way to enable the checkbox, I still think I have to wait for the entire clip to be re-rendered if I made any sort of edit.

So with all of that behind me, all I have on hand is h.264 source footage, and I'm not seeing a way to get VPX to effectively "do nothing" when I click export to copy GOP structure into a new container. I'm not mixing video types. I'm not even mixing anything really... it's just one clip. So my best bet is to play around with the various export options and encoders to see what works and pick whatever gives me a decent output while putting up with the busy computer.

Linked video:

Crossfades occur at 1:59 and 2:53. The video fades out 5:52.

The incredibly light nature of the edits meant that TMPGEnc only needed to render tiny portions of the video, and just copy the source footage directly for everything else, resulting in the reported ~30 seconds of "export" time.

johnebaker wrote on 9/8/2020, 2:45 PM

@CptSpaceToaster

Hi

. . . . all avenues for smart rendering are going to have to ignored or marked not-possible in VPX if the source footage . . . .

To be more specific any video format, that does not meet the strict conditions for Smart copy to work, are 'banned' - ie: files contained in the movie must have the same:

  1. video formats - all AVCHD or MPEG-2 - you cannot mix them
     
  2. bit rates (variable or constant)
     
  3. audio formats - codec, bitrate and sample rate
     
  4. image resolutions

    and
     
  5. the video material cannot be altered in any way other than hard cuts ie no transitions, fades or other effects applied, including titles and other audio.

John EB

Last changed by johnebaker on 9/8/2020, 2:46 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

Lateral thinking can get things done!

VPX 12, MEP Premium 2021, and earlier versions 2015 and 2016, Music Maker Premium 2021.

Running Windows 10 Professional 20H2 64bit on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16GB RAM, RTX 2060 6GB 192-bit GDDR6, 3 x 2Tb internal HDD + 60GB internal SSD, + 6 ext backup HDDs, Sony FDR-AX53 Video camera, Contour HD 1080 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

Scenestealer wrote on 9/9/2020, 7:46 AM

@CptSpaceToaster

Hi

Thanks for your comprehensive breakdown of your issues and attempts to understand Smart Copy and Smart Render in VPX.

The Smart Copy selection in the MPEG4 encoder setting can activate either SC or SR - depending on what is appropriate, with the file(s) in the timeline, what editing has been done, and how closely the export settings match the material. The check box will be greyed until the conditions specified by @johnebaker are met, and a box should appear saying Smart Render Info, at the bottom of the MPEG4 Export template window. If you click on this button - do not be alarmed if it does not indicate SC / SR will occur - just check the tick box at the bottom middle that will let you know what has occurred after export.

Smart Copy will happen if the clip has only been trimmed, Smart Render should happen if there is a crossfade where it will SC the clips and render the crossfade.

Theoretically - if you open a new project and drag your clip to the timeline the Project settings and Export settings should line up when you open the Export template but it is best to check the Advanced Encoder setting against your Media Info of your imported clip and adjust as many parameters as accurately as you can.

The problem is that your game footage may need to be recorded as AVCHD transport stream (.mts) and will probably only SR/SC to .mts. You will need to check this is alright with YT as the recommended YT settings only say MPEG4 PS (Program Stream)

I would deselect any reference to HWA for export in VPX and SC / SR should be much faster than that anyway.

I would not use Constant Bitrate whilst recording your game and YouTube prefers Variable BR also. Just make sure you use Constant Frame Rate as VFR causes VPX to have a fit!

You should also try the Main Concept encoder - but again you will likely need to use MPEG4 Transport Stream for SC / SR and no HWA. BTW there is reference in the VPX PDF manual to the more extensive settings available in the MC specific MPEG2 / MPEG4 Advanced Encoder settings.

As your system does not have an integrated GPU you can not use QuickSync so I would tend towards using the MC encoder as all your exports except HEVC will need to be SW (CPU) only, and as John EB has alluded to as such will be noticeably faster than the Intel (Default) encoder.

Interestingly John - if you select HEVC when the MC encoder is selected in the Program settings - you will see the MC encoder settings appear with the Intel interface!

@CubeAce

Hardware acceleration will only be enabled for HEVC exports if you don't have an Intel GPU as well.

This is not correct Ray. The program decides and you should see activity in Task Manager in the GPU1 (Nvidia) graph called "Video Processing", when the NVENC is active. You may need to select the Nvidia GPU in the "Video Mode" in Program Settings > Display Settings tab.

Peter

 

 

System Specs: Intel 6th Gen i7 6700K 4Ghz O.C.4.6GHz, Asus Z170 Pro Gaming MoBo, 16GB DDR4 2133Mhz RAM, Samsung 850 EVO 512GB SSD system disc WD Black 4TB HDD Video Storage, Nvidia GTX1060 OC 6GB, Win10 Pro 2004, MEP2016, 2021 (V20.0.1.73) Premium and prior, VPX7, VPX12 (V18.0.1.85). Microsoft Surface Pro3 i5 4300U 1.9GHz Max 2.6Ghz, HDGraphics 4400, 4GB Ram 128GB SSD + 64GB Strontium Micro SD card, Win 10Pro 2004, MEP2015 Premium.

CubeAce wrote on 9/9/2020, 8:30 AM

@Scenestealer

Sorry Peter.

Maybe I see different results due to having an Intel GPU as well.

I do have the nvidia card set in the 'Video mode' as default.

HEVC export.

MP4 export.

Windows 10 Enterprise. Version 20H2 OS build 19042.844. Direct X 12. Bios version 1401 latest hardware updates for Western Digital hard drives. Page file space 4.75GB.

Asus ROG STRIX Z390-F Gaming motherboard Rev 1.xx with Supreme FX inboard audio using the S1220A code. Driver No 6.0.8960.1

Intel i9900K Coffee Lake 3.6 to 5.1GHz CPU with Intel UHD 630 Graphics .Driver version 27.20.100.9168, with 32GB of 3200MHz Corsair DDR4 ram.

1000 watt EVGA modular power supply.

1 x 250GB SSD D: drive for current project. 1 x 250GB SamSung Evo 970 drive for Operating System. + x2 WD BLACK 2TB internal SATA 7,200rpm hard drives.I for internal backup and 1 for Library clips/sounds/music/stills. Total 12TB of four external WD drives for backup.

Gigabyte NVIDIA G Force GTX 1650 Super . nVidia driver version 460.89: 1280 CUDA cores Direct X 12. Memory interface 128bit Memory bandwidth 192.03GB/s 4GB of dedicated GDDR6 video memory, shared system memory 16307MB PCi Express x16 Gen3.

Running MEP Premium 20.0.1.79. and VPX 17.0.3.68 (UDP3)

M Audio Axiom AIR Mini MIDI keyboard Ver 5.10.0.3507

johnebaker wrote on 9/9/2020, 12:09 PM

@Scenestealer

Hi Peter

. . . . if you select HEVC when the MC encoder is selected in the Program settings - you will see the MC encoder settings appear with the Intel interface! . . .

I did notice that with the quick tests I did - it is certainly puzzling!

With the HEVC + MC codec export the loading on the CPU was certainly lower at around 50 - 60%, iGPU did not appear to be in use and the load on the RTX was not very high at all 15 - 20%. I need to do more testing on this one.

@CubeAce

. . . . I do have the nvidia card set in the 'Video mode' as default. . . .

Did you have VPX set to use the Nvidia GPU in Graphics settings?

John EB

 

 

Lateral thinking can get things done!

VPX 12, MEP Premium 2021, and earlier versions 2015 and 2016, Music Maker Premium 2021.

Running Windows 10 Professional 20H2 64bit on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16GB RAM, RTX 2060 6GB 192-bit GDDR6, 3 x 2Tb internal HDD + 60GB internal SSD, + 6 ext backup HDDs, Sony FDR-AX53 Video camera, Contour HD 1080 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

CubeAce wrote on 9/9/2020, 1:36 PM

@CptSpaceToaster @Scenestealer @johnebaker

Hi John.

Yes, I use the same base settings in both programs.

Ray.

Windows 10 Enterprise. Version 20H2 OS build 19042.844. Direct X 12. Bios version 1401 latest hardware updates for Western Digital hard drives. Page file space 4.75GB.

Asus ROG STRIX Z390-F Gaming motherboard Rev 1.xx with Supreme FX inboard audio using the S1220A code. Driver No 6.0.8960.1

Intel i9900K Coffee Lake 3.6 to 5.1GHz CPU with Intel UHD 630 Graphics .Driver version 27.20.100.9168, with 32GB of 3200MHz Corsair DDR4 ram.

1000 watt EVGA modular power supply.

1 x 250GB SSD D: drive for current project. 1 x 250GB SamSung Evo 970 drive for Operating System. + x2 WD BLACK 2TB internal SATA 7,200rpm hard drives.I for internal backup and 1 for Library clips/sounds/music/stills. Total 12TB of four external WD drives for backup.

Gigabyte NVIDIA G Force GTX 1650 Super . nVidia driver version 460.89: 1280 CUDA cores Direct X 12. Memory interface 128bit Memory bandwidth 192.03GB/s 4GB of dedicated GDDR6 video memory, shared system memory 16307MB PCi Express x16 Gen3.

Running MEP Premium 20.0.1.79. and VPX 17.0.3.68 (UDP3)

M Audio Axiom AIR Mini MIDI keyboard Ver 5.10.0.3507

Scenestealer wrote on 9/9/2020, 5:55 PM

@CubeAce @CptSpaceToaster

you should see activity in Task Manager in the GPU1 (Nvidia) graph called "Video Processing", when the NVENC is active.

Sorry Ray, I was wrong on that - I meant the "Video Encode" graph, and in your HEVC export SS it shows NVENC is being used whereas the graph is not showing in H.264 MP4 Export which means NVENC is not being used, which is correct. I have an Intel GPU as well.

@johnebaker

". . . . if you select HEVC when the MC encoder is selected in the Program settings - you will see the MC encoder settings appear with the Intel interface! . . ."

I did notice that with the quick tests I did - it is certainly puzzling!

Even more puzzling is that Magix support told me a while back that the NVENC encoding in VPX uses some Main Concept components....??

Did you have VPX set to use the Nvidia GPU in Graphics settings?

Had Power Saving set in my tests John.

Peter

System Specs: Intel 6th Gen i7 6700K 4Ghz O.C.4.6GHz, Asus Z170 Pro Gaming MoBo, 16GB DDR4 2133Mhz RAM, Samsung 850 EVO 512GB SSD system disc WD Black 4TB HDD Video Storage, Nvidia GTX1060 OC 6GB, Win10 Pro 2004, MEP2016, 2021 (V20.0.1.73) Premium and prior, VPX7, VPX12 (V18.0.1.85). Microsoft Surface Pro3 i5 4300U 1.9GHz Max 2.6Ghz, HDGraphics 4400, 4GB Ram 128GB SSD + 64GB Strontium Micro SD card, Win 10Pro 2004, MEP2015 Premium.

AAProds wrote on 9/11/2020, 8:25 AM
To be more specific any video format, that does not meet the strict conditions for Smart copy to work, are 'banned' - ie:

This is (and has been for years) a major annoyance with Magix. I use VideoRedo a lot, and it happily smart-renders anything you give it provided you save as the same format. It is a real shame that the Magix developers don't give their video products the same functionality; it would make saving so much quicker and save a generation of quality loss.

johnebaker wrote on 9/11/2020, 12:24 PM

@AAProds

Hi

. . . . VideoRedo . . . happily smart-renders anything you give it provided you save as the same format . . . .

Is that not the same conditions, with more formats (?), as for MEP and VPX's Smart copy/render ie same format, resolution.bitrate etc.

John EB

Lateral thinking can get things done!

VPX 12, MEP Premium 2021, and earlier versions 2015 and 2016, Music Maker Premium 2021.

Running Windows 10 Professional 20H2 64bit on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16GB RAM, RTX 2060 6GB 192-bit GDDR6, 3 x 2Tb internal HDD + 60GB internal SSD, + 6 ext backup HDDs, Sony FDR-AX53 Video camera, Contour HD 1080 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

CptSpaceToaster wrote on 9/11/2020, 1:49 PM

@johnebaker

I think where VPX seems to be dropping the ball (not sure about MEP), is making it clear what needs to be done in order to achieve smart copying and/or smart rendering. If VPX can actually smart render h.264 content (or as it calls it, MPEG-4 video) then it doesn't follow the expected pattern: ingesting the source footage's encoder settings, and using them for export, thus enabling smart-rendering.

It would seem, based on my time in the advanced encoder settings in VPX (and everything else I've tinkered with) that either VPX just straight up doesn't even try and/or my source footage doesn't match perfectly (which goes against previous answers given in this thread) Perhaps the requirements are incredibly unclear and involve making sure the source footage uses VBR, specific interlacing options and other stuff found in MediaInfo.

Put another way, VPX enforces a lot of settings on its content types. I will have to check, but I seem to remember the menu option to export as an MPEG-4 video forcing VBR when using the default encoder as a good example.

It's very unclear what the user would need to do in order to get VPX to actually smart render anything. Ideally, the program shouldn't be asking the user these questions, but in the event that this is just how the design functions, not being able to even change from VBR to CBR forces users to evaluate how the source footage is being recorded, and figure out if they can change all of the settings of what they're recording to match something that VPX might be able to smart render.

My results and experimentation have lead to the following conclusions

  1. I don't think VPX's default encoder can smart render h.264 content in an .mp4 or .mkv container in any way.
  2. I don't think the MC encoder can either.
  3. I seriously doubt VPX's capability to even smart-copy h.264 source footage from OBS in any way, but if it is, it would require quite a bit of time twiddling settings in OBS matching encoder settings (container, bitrate settings, reference frame settings, etc) and then using ffmpeg to recontain the video streams into an AVCHD container.

Just having a checkbox for "smart copy" always disabled indicates that there might be a path forward... but I haven't been able to sort out that path. Concerningly, the program can't even seem to adjust fps on import correctly. VPX claims that the resolution and framerate are the same, yet the footage doesn't match. I have to click "Do not adjust" otherwise my project settings revert to 20 fps for some reason, instead of 60. Likewise, the colorspace also changes for no discernable reason.

Other programs that have an export flow built around enabling smart-rendering, seem to be able to correctly ingest settings from the source footage while preventing the user from changing project/video settings.

Tl;DR

. . . . Is that not the same conditions, with more formats (?), as for MEP and VPX's Smart copy/render ie same format, resolution.bitrate etc . . . .

No... unless it is, and it's not clear. Other programs don't give you a choice, but VPX either doesn't try or makes you play a guessing game. I assumed I would be able to export a 2 minute long clip "as MPEG-4 video" without any changes or edits in 10 to 20 seconds on my hardware, but VPX always wants to re-encode the thing, and I can't figure out what's wrong.

johnebaker wrote on 9/11/2020, 2:43 PM

@CptSpaceToaster

Hi

. . . . VPX seems to be dropping the ball (not sure about MEP), is making it clear what needs to be done in order to achieve smart copying and smart rendering. . . . .

The basis of my comments here were taken from the PDF manual available under Help - searching the pdf for Smart Copy.

All 5 points must be satisfied before VPX will Smart copy when possible, re-render (Smart render?) where necessary.

However I think we have a bug - after further testing for the same project and previous images from VPX 10 I get this:

MEP 2015 and 2016

VPX 10

MEP 2021 and VPX 12

 

John EB

Lateral thinking can get things done!

VPX 12, MEP Premium 2021, and earlier versions 2015 and 2016, Music Maker Premium 2021.

Running Windows 10 Professional 20H2 64bit on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16GB RAM, RTX 2060 6GB 192-bit GDDR6, 3 x 2Tb internal HDD + 60GB internal SSD, + 6 ext backup HDDs, Sony FDR-AX53 Video camera, Contour HD 1080 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

CptSpaceToaster wrote on 9/12/2020, 6:28 PM

After fiddling with everything this morning, I was finally able to repeat @johnebaker's results, checking the smart-copy checkbox, and immediately getting an error when I tried to use my existing footage.

I had never realized that the "Presets" dropdown from the top of the MPEG-4 export window actually changes the resulting file container. In order to be able to Smart Render or Smart Copy anything, the user needs to export into a suitable AVCHD container that normally ends in .m2ts, .mts or .m2t

Changing the preset at the top of the menu into one prefixed with AVCHD will result in VPX generating a .m2ts container, thus allowing the user to select smart-copy from the advanced menu of either the MC or the Default encoder.

You can change any of the settings that you want after picking a preset... which will result in the Preset saying "User defined:" making it hard to know that the preset affects the file-container. VPX gets a 👎🏻 for hiding the ability to change what file container you're actually exporting to behind whatever preset you start with. I was convinced that you couldn't change the file container away from .mp4, because I never saw a dropdown or menu that allowed me to change it directly. Granted, the container being used is largely ignorable, and as long as things are h.264 inside, the results could be remuxed so I wasn't sad that .mp4 seemed to be my only choice. I just never realized that in order to get VPX to try and smart-render something, you need to start with an AVCHD export Preset, and then customize it from there to match your footage (probably... unless the nature of the bugs with smart-render mean that you can't change settings...)

So with that out of the way, the next goal is to try and figure out if OBS can produce anything that VPX will smart-render... or if the feature is bugged currently. As I briefly mentioned, I only get errors past this point.

The MC encoder literally doesn't even start rendering. Not sure why that's not happy, but if I check the box for smart-rendering in the advanced menu and hit OK, the MPEG-4 export dialog simply closes and nothing happens.

I ended up selecting the highest quality AVCHD Preset (AVCHD transport stream 1920x1080 59.94p HQ) and exporting the video so I could look at it's MediaInfo. With that in hand, I messed with OBS for most of the day trying to get it to make it so my source footage might have a "similar enough" MediaInfo

And the resulting MediaInfo. Notes:

  • Profile matches (High@L4.2)
  • Anything made by VPX has 3 reference frames. Anything made by OBS has 2 reference frames. I can't seem to change either side to match here.
  • Bitrate mode matches (Variable)
  • Both programs have the same variable bitrate set (24Mb/s)
  • Max bitrate matches (28Mb/s)
  • FPS matches (59.940)
  • Dimensions, aspect ratio, color space, all match.
  • I can't select which audio format I'd like OBS to use, and I don't think I can set VPX to use AAC LC if I'm using this preset, so I will probably always be stuck re-processing audio. Which doesn't seem like a big deal.
  • The VPX default audio bitrate is 384 kBit/s, which is too high for OBS to match. OBS can go up to 320 kBit/s. I set both to 128 kBit/s

OBS can't create .m2ts, .mts or .m2t containers by default, so I repeated attempts past this point using the .mkv directly, and remuxing the source file using ffmpeg:

> ffmpeg -i 'Replay 2020-09-12 18-43-29.mkv' -vcodec copy -c:a copy -map 0 'Replay 2020-09-12 18-43-29.m2ts'

  1. I made a new project with User-defined settings
  2. I imported in the source footage (either the mkv or the m2ts)
  3. File -> Export Movie -> Video as MPEG-4
  4. I selected the AVCHD transport stream 1920x1080 59.94p HQ preset
  5. In the Advanced menu, I selected Smart Copy, and lowered the audio bitrate to 128 kBit/s to match the source footage.
  6. I previewed the Smart Render Info dialog by clicking on the new button that popped up on the export dialog, to make sure that the checkbox to "Show this dialog after export" was selected.

  7. I clicked OK in the export dialog

The results:

Using the original .mkv the export for a 10-second long clip took ~40 seconds, indicating that the footage was not smart-rendered. The resulting video looked and sounded correct.

Using the remuxed .m2ts source file: the export for a 10-second long clip took ~40 seconds, indicating that the footage was not smart-rendered. The picture was just a black screen. (VPX doesn't appear to like my shoddy remux job I guess?)

In both cases the Smartrender info screen indicated there was "No reader for audio type" but despite this, the expected audio was present. The resulting Smartrender info dialog looked like this:

So looking back at the criteria:

  • video formats - all AVCHD or MPEG-2 - you cannot mix them
    • I would argue that my video formats "match" as the underlying codec has always been h264 and therefore sufficient for all AVCHD containers such as .m2ts. However experimenting by making my source show up in AVCHD containers (.m2ts) by remuxing it resulted in a WORSE outcome (no picture) so I am baffled at how to reasonably be able to satisfy this constraint any further than I already have.
  • bit rates (variable or constant)
    • This is easy to match, no issue here.
  • audio formats - codec, bitrate and sample rate
    • Because the output preset in VPX doesn't allow me to select AAC LC, I will either need to re-encode the source footage as AC-3 outside of VPX, or simply let the encoder re-encode the audio, which I'm assuming not having this match just means the audio stream won't be smart rendered, and the video stream hopefully still can
  • image resolutions
    • Again, this was easy to match. No issue here.
  • the video material cannot be altered in any way other than hard cuts ie no transitions, fades or other effects applied, including titles and other audio.
    • The source footage was just dropped into a new project and no edits occurred.
CubeAce wrote on 9/12/2020, 7:37 PM

@CptSpaceToaster

Hi Cap.

This may be a stupid question but have you tried using VPX to do your screen captures?

It just occurred to me I use OBS to capture me using VPX or MEP but there is no reason you can't use VPX to capture gameplay. Maybe the resulting files will be more compatible.

 

Ray.

 

Last changed by CubeAce on 9/12/2020, 7:39 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

Windows 10 Enterprise. Version 20H2 OS build 19042.844. Direct X 12. Bios version 1401 latest hardware updates for Western Digital hard drives. Page file space 4.75GB.

Asus ROG STRIX Z390-F Gaming motherboard Rev 1.xx with Supreme FX inboard audio using the S1220A code. Driver No 6.0.8960.1

Intel i9900K Coffee Lake 3.6 to 5.1GHz CPU with Intel UHD 630 Graphics .Driver version 27.20.100.9168, with 32GB of 3200MHz Corsair DDR4 ram.

1000 watt EVGA modular power supply.

1 x 250GB SSD D: drive for current project. 1 x 250GB SamSung Evo 970 drive for Operating System. + x2 WD BLACK 2TB internal SATA 7,200rpm hard drives.I for internal backup and 1 for Library clips/sounds/music/stills. Total 12TB of four external WD drives for backup.

Gigabyte NVIDIA G Force GTX 1650 Super . nVidia driver version 460.89: 1280 CUDA cores Direct X 12. Memory interface 128bit Memory bandwidth 192.03GB/s 4GB of dedicated GDDR6 video memory, shared system memory 16307MB PCi Express x16 Gen3.

Running MEP Premium 20.0.1.79. and VPX 17.0.3.68 (UDP3)

M Audio Axiom AIR Mini MIDI keyboard Ver 5.10.0.3507

CptSpaceToaster wrote on 9/12/2020, 7:59 PM

@CubeAce

No, and it's a very poor replacement. OBS lets me stream to twitch, make local recordings with multiple audio sources, manage and edit various scenes, manage multiple audio tracks... the list goes on.

VPX seems to only be able to record whatever's on the default screen into a proprietary .mxv container. Trying to smart-render my quick sample results in failure regardless.