Which spec. Surface Book 2 for Video Pro X

discburn wrote on 4/6/2019, 3:43 PM

I have the opportunity to buy a Microsoft Surface Book 2 13.5'' (Yippee!).

I presume Video Pro X will run well on it. But is it necessary to get the very highest spec, or would the integrated graphics version be powerful enough?

Thanks in advance!

Seamus

Comments

johnebaker wrote on 4/6/2019, 7:58 PM

@discburn

Hi Seamus

. . . . Microsoft Surface Book 2 13.5'' (Yippee!). I presume Video Pro X will run well on it . . . .

In my experience with a Surface Pro 4 (borrowed from my wife) video editing on such a small screen is not practical.

The Surface Pro 2 came with one of 2 different processors - the i5-4200U or 4300U - and the integrated GPU does not meet the minimum specificaton to use hardware acceleration - they both have a HD 4400 and you need a HD4600 minimum, also both processors are dual core only - performance is 'limited'.

HTH

John EB

Lateral thinking can get things done!

VPX, MEP Premium, MEP 2016, and earlier versions, Music Maker Premium, Music Maker 2016, 2015.

Running Windows 10 64bit on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16Gb RAM, 1Tb + 2 x 2Tb internal HDD + 60Gb internal SSD, + 6 x 2Tb ext HDDs, Sony FDR-AX53 Video camera, Contour HD 1080 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

Scenestealer wrote on 4/7/2019, 7:18 PM

@johnebaker

Discburn is referring to a Surface Book 2 which is a recent laptop creation from Microsoft using 7th and 8th Gen Intel processors with Intel HD620 graphics.

@discburn

It depends really on how much you want to spend as it all helps given that laptops do not have the ultimate performance of desktops, but I would go with the 8th Gen Quadcore i7 8650u model which has the most processing power, albeit with a modest 1.9GHz base clock speed but boosting up to 4.2Ghz, 16GB of RAM, and 256GB (minimum) SSD. The integrated HD620 graphics performance in VPX would not be improved on much by getting the Discreet Nvidia graphics as well, but there may be a deal where you could get that model for not much extra.

With the smallish SSD you would really need an external storage drive for your camera files as well, and as John EB has stated it would be a struggle editing on such a small screen so I would use a connected monitor.

Peter

System Specs: Intel 6th Gen i7 6700K 4Ghz O.C.4.6GHz, Asus Z170 Pro Gaming MoBo, 16GB DDR4 2133Mhz RAM, Samsung 850 EVO 512GB SSD system disc WD Black 4TB HDD Video Storage, Nvidia GTX1060 OC 6GB, Win10 Pro 1903, MEP2016, 2020 Premium and prior, VPX7, VPX11. Microsoft Surface Pro3 i5 4300U 1.9GHz Max 2.6Ghz, HDGraphics 4400, 4GB Ram 128GB SSD + 64GB Strontium Micro SD card, Win 10Pro 1903, MEP2015 Premium.

discburn wrote on 4/7/2019, 11:41 PM

Thanks, guys.

@Scenestealer

The integrated HD620 graphics performance in VPX would not be improved on much by getting the Discreet Nvidia graphics as well, but there may be a deal where you could get that model for not much extra.

I would have thought the dedicated NVIDIA GTX 1050 would have made all the difference to performance, as it’s mentioned in Magix system requirements?

Seamus

Scenestealer wrote on 4/8/2019, 12:39 AM

@discburn

I would have thought the dedicated NVIDIA GTX 1050 would have made all the difference to performance, as it’s mentioned in Magix system requirements?

It would if you did not have an integrated Intel GPU and wanted to use Hardware acceleration during export of HEVC (H.265) files, but that's just about all it contributes to VPX with a late model Intel with HD graphics.

Peter

System Specs: Intel 6th Gen i7 6700K 4Ghz O.C.4.6GHz, Asus Z170 Pro Gaming MoBo, 16GB DDR4 2133Mhz RAM, Samsung 850 EVO 512GB SSD system disc WD Black 4TB HDD Video Storage, Nvidia GTX1060 OC 6GB, Win10 Pro 1903, MEP2016, 2020 Premium and prior, VPX7, VPX11. Microsoft Surface Pro3 i5 4300U 1.9GHz Max 2.6Ghz, HDGraphics 4400, 4GB Ram 128GB SSD + 64GB Strontium Micro SD card, Win 10Pro 1903, MEP2015 Premium.

discburn wrote on 4/8/2019, 12:57 AM

So VPX only uses the integrated Intel GPU for 'editing/playback'. And keeps the discreet GPU for export? Can the discreet GPU not be assigned to VPX instead of the integrated one?

emmrecs wrote on 4/8/2019, 3:54 AM

@discburn

So VPX only uses the integrated Intel GPU for 'editing/playback'. And keeps the discreet GPU for export?

Not as I understand it, no. On my machine I see both the integrated intel and the Radeon card being used for editing, playback AND export.

Can the discreet GPU not be assigned to VPX instead of the integrated one?

Yes, theoretically, it can. Go to Program Settings (shortcut Y)>Display Options an d look at the settings I've highlighted below

But why disable one when both can work together?

Or am I completely misunderstanding something? (Very likely!)

Jeff

Win 10 Pro 64 bit, Intel i7 Quad Core 6700K @ 4GHz, 32 GB RAM, AMD Radeon R7 360 and Intel HD530 Graphics, MOTU 8-Pre f/w audio interface, VPX, MEP, Music Maker, Photo Story Deluxe, Photo Manager Deluxe, Xara 3D Maker 7, Reaper, Adobe Audition CS6 and CC, 2 x Canon HG10 cameras, 1 x Canon EOS 600D

discburn wrote on 4/8/2019, 5:51 AM

That's interesting, Jeff! I guess it should work then, but I'd need to know for sure before I invest.

Anybody care to confirm what Jeff is saying?

Seamus

johnebaker wrote on 4/8/2019, 6:15 AM

@discburn

Hi Seamus

Apologies for getting the wrong device, thanks @Scenestealer.

. . . . Anybody care to confirm what Jeff is saying? . . . .

Unfortunately not, I do not have a NVidia graphics card.

John EB

Lateral thinking can get things done!

VPX, MEP Premium, MEP 2016, and earlier versions, Music Maker Premium, Music Maker 2016, 2015.

Running Windows 10 64bit on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16Gb RAM, 1Tb + 2 x 2Tb internal HDD + 60Gb internal SSD, + 6 x 2Tb ext HDDs, Sony FDR-AX53 Video camera, Contour HD 1080 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

Scenestealer wrote on 4/8/2019, 6:15 PM

@discburn

So VPX only uses the integrated Intel GPU for 'editing/playback'.

No, as Jeff has indicated, and it seems to split the load between both GPU's but I have not seen evidence that this improves timeline playback significantly. I see a very marginal increase in smoothness in some instances and material where the discreet GPU (Nvidia 1060 in my case) is selected in the program settings instead of the Intel, as in Jeff's screen shot.

And keeps the discreet GPU for export?

No. The discreet (Nvidia only) GPU can only be called during export for one type of codec - HW encoding HEVC H.265. If there is activity showing in Task Manager or GPU-Z during export of H.265 then it will be some parallel processing of the video effects applied to the clips.

Can the discreet GPU not be assigned to VPX instead of the integrated one?

Actually it can owing to a new feature in "Win10>Settings>Display Settings" called "Graphics Settings" where you can assign a GPU to a particular .EXE but this seems to be another can of worms. With VPX and MEP I find that assigning "Power Saving" (ie. Integrated GPU) gives me the smoothest edit and HW accelerated export. The Default and Performance (discreet GPU) options seem to disable HW export on my system. What is worse is that this seems to reset itself to Default for some reason, probably due to a Win10 or Intel Driver update.

@emmrecs

Can the discreet GPU not be assigned to VPX instead of the integrated one?

Yes, theoretically, it can. Go to Program Settings (shortcut Y)>Display Options an d look at the settings I've highlighted below...

In Terms of playback in the arranger it can in the Program settings, but my observation points toward the work being split in half between the 2 x GPUs and not being doubled. If you only had the Intel in the system then you would probably see double the load on it.

Peter

System Specs: Intel 6th Gen i7 6700K 4Ghz O.C.4.6GHz, Asus Z170 Pro Gaming MoBo, 16GB DDR4 2133Mhz RAM, Samsung 850 EVO 512GB SSD system disc WD Black 4TB HDD Video Storage, Nvidia GTX1060 OC 6GB, Win10 Pro 1903, MEP2016, 2020 Premium and prior, VPX7, VPX11. Microsoft Surface Pro3 i5 4300U 1.9GHz Max 2.6Ghz, HDGraphics 4400, 4GB Ram 128GB SSD + 64GB Strontium Micro SD card, Win 10Pro 1903, MEP2015 Premium.

discburn wrote on 4/9/2019, 1:57 AM

Thanks for that explanation, Peter!

It seems a pity that, for the 'professional'/'broadcast quality' Video Pro X, Magix doesn’t make full use of the PC discreet cards. Every other above-prosumer NLE I know of requires a discreet GPU. So, 'professionals' moving over to VPX on their PCs will be in for a big surprise. Even proxy editing won’t play smoothly after a single effect is added.

Video Pro X, for its price, should be in a different category to Movie Edit Pro. Maybe that’s where the Vegas acquisition comes in?

I was planning on replacing my NVIDIA Quadro 4000 with the GTX 1060, but I’ll hold off. I’ll stay using VPX 6, which is buttery smooth on my current system.

Does anyone know the final version of VPX that runs well on discrete cards? I can’t really use VPX 10 at all, but maybe 7 or 8 runs fine? Does that version have the 'Curves' functions? Do the Scopes work well? And, being an owner of 6 and 10, how would I get that version?

Thanks for all the invaluable information. I’d be lost without the forum!

Seamus

johnebaker wrote on 4/9/2019, 3:40 AM

@discburn

Hi Seamus

. . . . Even proxy editing won’t play smoothly after a single effect is added . . . .

That depends on the effect applied and the PC specification.

In the case of my PC (spec in signature) and 4K video on timeline, the Neat Video Denoiser preview is not entirely smooth and export can be excruciatingly slow for those sections where it has been used - it does not use the iGPU for acceleration..

Other processor/GPU intensive effects, such as Mercalli 4 stabilisation, have very little effect on preview smoothness whether using proxies or not - for the most part I turn off proxies whenever possible.

. . . . Does anyone know the final version of VPX that runs well on discrete cards? . . . .

See Peters comment above about use for ' keeps the discreet GPU for export' .

HTH

John EB

Lateral thinking can get things done!

VPX, MEP Premium, MEP 2016, and earlier versions, Music Maker Premium, Music Maker 2016, 2015.

Running Windows 10 64bit on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16Gb RAM, 1Tb + 2 x 2Tb internal HDD + 60Gb internal SSD, + 6 x 2Tb ext HDDs, Sony FDR-AX53 Video camera, Contour HD 1080 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

discburn wrote on 4/9/2019, 8:12 AM

Thanks John EB.

Just wonder, though, was VPX 7 or VPX 8 working with NVIDIA Quadro 4000 type cards (CUDA)?

Seamus

johnebaker wrote on 4/9/2019, 10:58 AM

@discburn

Hi

. . . . NVIDIA Quadro 4000 type cards (CUDA) . . . .

CUDA is actually the incorrect name for the video encoder, the correct name, that is often referred to as CUDA is NVCUVID - the CUDA core is the part of the graphics chip that does the work.

NVidia dropped support for this encoder several years ago and do not include this in the current drivers which now support the new encoder NVENC.

VPX 10 does support the NVENC encoder encoder, however with limitations, as Peter has detailed above.

Older versions of VPX do not support the new NVENC encoder.

HTH

John EB

Lateral thinking can get things done!

VPX, MEP Premium, MEP 2016, and earlier versions, Music Maker Premium, Music Maker 2016, 2015.

Running Windows 10 64bit on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16Gb RAM, 1Tb + 2 x 2Tb internal HDD + 60Gb internal SSD, + 6 x 2Tb ext HDDs, Sony FDR-AX53 Video camera, Contour HD 1080 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

Scenestealer wrote on 4/10/2019, 7:07 AM

Hi Seamus

It seems a pity that, for the 'professional'/'broadcast quality' Video Pro X, Magix doesn’t make full use of the PC discreet cards.

I think the answer here is that the the integrated graphics do a dam fine job for playback and encoding and there would not be big gains to be had from an additional GPU.

If your Quadro is the one released in about 2010 then it should have the GF (fermi) architecture and be able to utilise its' Cuda Cores for HW encoding H.264 material, providing you use the Main Concept encoder. The rider may be that you need to use a legacy driver to utilise the NVCUVID feature that John has alluded to.

VPX7 was the first version to include the Curves feature but the Scopes are the same as the ones included in VPX from the very earliest version AFAIK. You may need to turn them on in VPX6.

Some reasons you may not be getting good performance with your current rig with VPX10 could be that your Xeon does not have AVX optimisations which are used to accelerate Colour corrections that since VPX6 are been processed in 16bit instead of 8bit.

Quote Magix:-

Video Pro X's AVX optimizations for internal image processing and 3-way color correction make image processing much faster, deliver much more precise output quality on color conversions and free up resources for the use of additional effects.

Peter

 

System Specs: Intel 6th Gen i7 6700K 4Ghz O.C.4.6GHz, Asus Z170 Pro Gaming MoBo, 16GB DDR4 2133Mhz RAM, Samsung 850 EVO 512GB SSD system disc WD Black 4TB HDD Video Storage, Nvidia GTX1060 OC 6GB, Win10 Pro 1903, MEP2016, 2020 Premium and prior, VPX7, VPX11. Microsoft Surface Pro3 i5 4300U 1.9GHz Max 2.6Ghz, HDGraphics 4400, 4GB Ram 128GB SSD + 64GB Strontium Micro SD card, Win 10Pro 1903, MEP2015 Premium.

discburn wrote on 4/10/2019, 9:08 AM

Hi Peter,

Some reasons you may not be getting good performance with your current rig with VPX10 could be that your Xeon does not have AVX optimisations which are used to accelerate Colour corrections that since VPX6 are been processed in 16bit instead of 8bit.

Yes, as soon as I make the slightest change in brightness, etc. playback suffers. That would also explain why proxy editing is the same.

Okay, I'll stay with VPX 6 for another while until I need to change my computer (it's a complicated system to upgrade!). The VPX 6 scopes are buggy compared with VPX 10. However, my Flanders Scientific BM 210 has excellent scopes and the SDI playback from VPX 6 is completely smooth.

Thanks again to all!

Seamus

 

discburn wrote on 6/20/2019, 1:43 PM

@Scenestealer

Hi Peter,

I just want to take up this discussion again because I have bought a Surface Book 2, 13.5", 16GB, i7 8th Gen with NVIDIA GeForce discrete graphics, 1TB model.

This is for working with when I'm away from my studio. As mentioned above, on my studio Dell T5500 PC, I have to stay with VPX 6 because the Xeon processors do not have AVX optimisations for colour correction. Consequently, the slightest colour correction using VPX 10 causes very stunted playback. However, VPX 6 plays buttery smooth.

So... I can install VPX 6 or VPX 10 on my Surface Book 2. I presume VPX 6 will run fine (but maybe it won't!). But I would love if VPX 10 could run smoothly when colour correction is engaged, despite the fact that the processors may or may not have AVX optimisations.

Any ideas before I start loading software?

Seamus

johnebaker wrote on 6/20/2019, 4:34 PM

@discburn

Hi Seamus

. . . . Any ideas before I start loading software? . . . .

If you are intending to transfer projects between the Surface Book and the PC to continue working on them, then they should both have the same version of VPX installed otherwise if you use an effect, transition etc from VPX 10 it may not be available in 6.

If your PC has two hard drives and the projects and their resources are on a second hard drive, on the Surface Book create the same folder structure and then map a network share to that folder with a drive letter that matches the PC eg:

  • on my PC projects and all resources are in W:\Magix\DVD_BD_Projects folder
     
  • on my laptop the projects and all resources are in C:\Users\John\Documents\Magix\DVD_BD_Projects folder

I mapped a drive letter to a folder on the laptop mapping drive W: to C:\Users\John\Documents\.

In my MEP, on both computers, the Program Settings, Folder settings are as shown below.

This way I can move projects between PC and laptop with no folder location error when opening a project.

HTH

John EB

 

 

Last changed by johnebaker on 6/20/2019, 4:37 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

Lateral thinking can get things done!

VPX, MEP Premium, MEP 2016, and earlier versions, Music Maker Premium, Music Maker 2016, 2015.

Running Windows 10 64bit on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16Gb RAM, 1Tb + 2 x 2Tb internal HDD + 60Gb internal SSD, + 6 x 2Tb ext HDDs, Sony FDR-AX53 Video camera, Contour HD 1080 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

discburn wrote on 6/20/2019, 5:10 PM

@johnebaker

Thanks John EB for those tips,

Can you also comment on my question...

But I would love if VPX 10 could run smoothly when colour correction is engaged, despite the fact that the processors may or may not have AVX optimisations.

Do you think VPX 10 can run smoothly on the Surface Book 2?

Seamus

Scenestealer wrote on 6/20/2019, 8:11 PM

Hi

@discburn

You should have no problem with an 8th gen i7 and AVX as it will have all the latest optimisations.

I don't know if you are aware that you can download VPX11free if your 1 year update service is still to run. This has an upgraded engine that is supposed to take even more load off the hardware so definitely I would install VPX10 or 11.

As you said - Yippee!

Peter

System Specs: Intel 6th Gen i7 6700K 4Ghz O.C.4.6GHz, Asus Z170 Pro Gaming MoBo, 16GB DDR4 2133Mhz RAM, Samsung 850 EVO 512GB SSD system disc WD Black 4TB HDD Video Storage, Nvidia GTX1060 OC 6GB, Win10 Pro 1903, MEP2016, 2020 Premium and prior, VPX7, VPX11. Microsoft Surface Pro3 i5 4300U 1.9GHz Max 2.6Ghz, HDGraphics 4400, 4GB Ram 128GB SSD + 64GB Strontium Micro SD card, Win 10Pro 1903, MEP2015 Premium.

discburn wrote on 6/21/2019, 4:08 AM

@Scenestealer

Thanks for that, Peter!

I think my year is up for VPX11 (didn't renew update service after 10 because 10 is slow on my Dell T5500). But this now opens up a lot of new possibilities!!

Seamus