Hi

I'm trying to sync the 3 videos to each other and to the wav file and it wont work

What will not work? What method have you been trying?

Have you tried right clicking the audio track that you want the others to align to and choosing " Align other audio objects with this track" and following the prompts?

Ss

Thanks johnebaker, but I was looking for a quicker method. Also, its not accurate.
Scenestealer: I can sync the 3 video files together using audio and align tracks. But I cant sync the separate audio file that I've recorded on a Zoom H5.
I plug the Zoom into the mixing desk and take all the channels from the stage through the desk onto 1 channel on the Zoom. It also has 2 stereo mics on it which record ambient sound (the sound from the room that includes music from the speakers as well as the audience). I then combine both channels into one and save it as a wav file.
I want to use the wav file as the main audio because it is the best sound.
Thanks

Hi bobtal,

You are meeting the problem that arises because the various recordings, both audio and video, were not directly synchronised with each other as they were being created. This synchronisation is what television companies spend lots and lots of dollars/pounds on in order to "lock" the various audio and video sources together! Even in today's digital age audio can "drift" (go out of time) between one digital recorder, your audio, and another, your camera(s).

There is a solution but it isn't cheap! As someone who periodically is asked to do multicam recordings, with separate audio recordings (the biggest I did had two cameras and two additional audio recordings, one direct from a mixing desk and one "ambient") the only solution I have found is a software called PluralEyes, now part of the Shooter Suite from Red Giant. The web page is https://www.redgiant.com/products/shooter-suite/

Essentially, to use the software you load your video and separate audio files to tracks (one per camera plus one per separate audio) on its timeline. The software then scans all the files and automatically treats the camera files as "masters" and creates and outputs a new version of your H5 audio track that is perfectly synchronised with your videos.

Problem solved, but at a not inconsiderable price! Only you can decide whether the price is worth it to you but I can definitely say that if you do any amount of multicam that includes an "independent" audio recording, PluralEyes is worth its weight in gold.

Jeff

Hi Emmrecs
Thanks for that. I've heard of Pluraleyes but didnt know how it worked. Is it purely syncing software for audio/video files or do I use it instead of magix for video editing. I looked at the redgiant site and the pluraleyes tab. It seems to create a new synced timeline? Do I save that timeline in some format and somehow import it into Magix or what do I do?

Primarily PluralEyes is "designed" to work with PremierPro, Edius, Vegas Pro and Final Cut Pro, but it does have an "other editors" mode.

The procedure for using with "other editors" is to load your video and audio files on to separate tracks in PE. Then press the Synchronise button. You will need to choose the option to "Export as Media Files", selecting only the audio track(s). Then, in whichever folder you designate PE will create and store the new, synced, audio file.

PE is NOT an editor; you will still need to use MEP to actually edit your video. The facility to create a new timeline is applicable ONLY to the editors I listed earlier. http://www.redgiant.com/user-guide/red-giant-pluraleyes/ is the section of the Red Giant site containing the PE Help files; it might be worth looking at at least some of them?

HTH

Jeff

Thanks Jeff. I think I'll download a trial

I don't think you will regret it!

One other thing to mention: if, perchance, your video files also lose sync at any time, PE can also export new version of them, as it does for the audio.

Thanks. I'll download it and play with it

Hi,

I haven't tried doing this with an audio file that was recorded separately from video. As a test, I took the audio of a video file, did the Edit in external editor routine, modified the sound a bit with some effects including denoising and some reverb, and then back to MEP2016. I separated this changed audio file from the video, put back the audio. There is a distinct difference in sound between the two audio objects. I moved the audio (wav) object to the right and then did the right-click align thing, and it worked fine.

So, is there something that is stopping MEP from analyzing the audio file? Is it quite different from the camera audio? Are the frequencies different (44.1 kHz for the audio file vs 48 kHz for the audio with video)?

I am curious to know why MEP is unable to handle this. If the sound is that much different, then even Pluraleyes may not be able to handle it.

Good points browj2. I'll check the frequencies. I've got to go now and record another 2 concerts, tonight and tomorrow night. One will have 2 cameras and the other will have 3. Both will have audio recorded separately on the Zoom H5

@browj2 

Unfortunately I don't think your test is directly relevant to the problem bobtal is experiencing, sorry.

The difficulty created by a separate audio recording when attempting to sync it with camera audio manifests itself as the audios drifting apart, over time, somewhat randomly (often stopping and then restarting playback in MEP will "correct" the drift). IOW deliberately "altering" the audio file is not truly representative of the OP's problem.

OTOH your point about different sample frequencies is very well-made!

Jeff

@emmrecs

Hi Jeff, this is what I am trying to understand. Would this not be the same problem as recording with 2 different cameras (or 3 or 4)? I don't understand why another file, even it is audio only, could not be aligned using the command in MEP.

My altering the audio file was just a test to see if MEP could still line them up even if there was some significant difference in the sound. I agree that it's not a great test.

I thought that maybe I should do a short test with 2 cameras and an audio recorder to see if I could get them to line up. My wife has hidden away her audio recorder somewhere, not a Zoom, but I'll try to find it. I had intended on doing this before but never got around to it.

Also, once the selected audio file is lined up, it goes on to track 2 (master). With video from multiple cameras on track 1, will the drift still occur? And it does correct itself?

Thanks,

Hi

What mode are you using the Zoom H5 in - stereo or multitrack (4 track)?

Which file mode are you recording in and is it 16 or 24 bit?

John EB

Hi John,

Because the various sources, both audio and video are not synchronised to a common external master clock and hence are running to their own internal clocks, which can momentarily and slightly deviate from each other, the drift can, as it were, create temporal divergences of a magnitude that MEP or VPX cannot reconcile. It doesn't know which source to use as the "master" (clock) and anyway it has no means of time-correcting such divergences.

In my experience the problem is often most evident when dealing with a separate audio recording. I use 2 identical Canon video cameras; perhaps because of their "common manufacturer" sync is rarely a problem. If I also use either or both of my Zoom audio recorders PluralEyes becomes essential on any recording, e.g. a wedding, where there may be up to an hour or more's continuous recording.

Jeff

@johnebaker. I use multitasking. In fact I'm at a gig now that I'm recording with 3 cameras and the separate zoom h5. 2 cameras and the zoom will run non stop for the full gig and I'll be moving around with the 3rd that I'll be turning on and off at times so that I take stills photos too

@bobtal

John EB said "multitrack" not "multitask" but I like your answer. Just don't also send out emails or reply to us here while doing all of those tasks. Sounds like you need an assistant. Have a good one!

Hi bobtal

. . . . I use multitasking . . . .

I suspected your were using the Zoom's multitrack function

. . . . I plug the Zoom into the mixing desk and take all the channels from the stage through the desk onto 1 channel on the Zoom. It also has 2 stereo mics on it which record ambient sound (the sound from the room that includes music from the speakers as well as the audience). I then combine both channels into one and save it as a wav file . . . .

Is the main music channel one of the Zoom's channels, or is it a blend from the different sources?

What are you using to combine all the channels and what bitrate, samplerate and bit depth are you using for the combined final WAV file?

John EB

@browj2. You're right . It's multitasking. That was either big fingers on small buttons or correcting text on the phone

Battery is about to die on the phone and I have to setup for the gig so I'll come back tomorrow.

Thanks to all. It's much appreciated

It did it again. It's multitracking

Hi Jeff

It doesn't know which source to use as the "master" (clock) and anyway it has no means of time-correcting such divergences.

You can choose which track to use as the master with the Rt.click - "Align other Audio tracks with this track".

Small time differences between tracks from unlocked recording devices could be corrected in MEP by using "Timestretching". Over an hour the difference should be fairly obvious and easy to correct - Yes?

Peter

Hi Peter,

When I wrote "Master" I was using the term in the sense of the track which MEP sees as the "audio sync reference", the track with whose audio all other audio sources must be forced to align, as you commented. From experience I know this can often be successful but, as in bobtal's case, if the drift is beyond the scope of MEP/VPX to correct (it lacks the facility to create a "new" version of any audio track that is "seriously" adrift) then an external app becomes the only way forward I think.

Indeed, Timestretching can help with the sync problem but, as I intimated before, I think, the audio drift is rarely consistent (i.e. becoming gradually "worse" over a period of time -it does not always - thus suggesting the "rate of drift" is not fixed) but can actually manifest as sync that is sometimes "in" and sometimes "out". Thus if Timestretch were to be used on a complete audio file of, say one hour, if the reference for the amount of stretch applied were to be taken from the "end" of the audio file, its "beginning" would be out of sync because the drift correction has been aplied to a section that, hopefully because it IS the beginning, was not out of sync! So, the only method is to cut your audio into short segments and test and apply the appropriate amount of Timestretch, surely a very tedious process!

All the above is based on my experience in producing a DVD of a wedding plus photos plus reception etc., using 2 cameras, ambient recording (48 kHz wav) and separate mp3 recording taken from the church's sound mixing desk! The actual ceremony, including arrivals of guests etc. produced a continuous recording of nearly 1.5 hours, with all the syncing problems THAT produced. Great fun, ultimately made much easier by the use of PluralEyes. (Yes, I'm a fan of PE!)

Jeff

Hi Jeff

Yes I appreciate what you say, that the crystal oscillators in recording devices, whilst more likely to be slightly slow or slightly fast, can vary with temperature over a period. On movie sets they usually have a master clock device which they jam sync all the devices to, but they generally only redo the syncing a couple of times in a day on set. A couple of hours would not seem to be that significant for non linear variations but of course we are not talking in your situation about "professional" devices on the whole, and you have had the experience first hand.

PE sounds like a great piece of kit. Actually I wonder how the syncing tool in Magix actually determines when the tracks are in sync? With MEP / VPX's ability to do this and the fact it can timestretch, with all Magix's experience in post production audio tools like Samplitude it would probably not be that hard for them to make it do something similar to PE.

Peter