Glow/Luminance on white shirts (VHS-MP4)

CubeAce wrote on 2/9/2024, 3:42 PM

Hi Rick.

Once you don't have the original footage there is little to work with. Any large blocks of colour that have the same values will all be equal digitally (share the same numerical values) so if you reduce the brightness of one pixel you reduce all the surrounding pixels that have the same colour / brightness by the same value. There is no variation within those values to extract or manipulate. Even with the original footage, unless it is less bright than the example image those areas would still be blown with no additional detail as all of the photosites would have been completely saturated and full.

You could try reducing the amount of blue and see if that helps but I doubt it.

Ray.

Rickvv wrote on 2/9/2024, 3:48 PM

Thanks Ray, this makes sense. This MP4 source was sprung on me, and learning MovieStudio as I go. I'm not even sure I could do anything with the "original" VHS (my last VHS player went off to the great recycler in the sky about a year ago). I'll try the blue. Appreciate your time.

rick

CubeAce wrote on 2/9/2024, 4:53 PM

@Rickvv

Hi Rick.

Yes you are probably correct unless you could access the RGB channels from the VHS machine. Even then if the camera that shot it was working with stage lighting, the dynamic range of the lighting would probably have been too great a range for the tech of that time. Even when I shoot stills of stage performances I tend to shoot tiff just because I can shoot 16 bit with tiff.

Ray.

AAProds wrote on 2/9/2024, 7:26 PM

@Rickvv

It is possible to move various colours around and that purple hue could possibly be minimised or removed, but it requires advanced video techniques and software eg AVISynth. I suggest you clip a short section, say 30 seconds, and the post it on VideoHelp. There are some brilliant minds there that should be able to help.

Could you post a short snippet onto Google Drive (or similar) for us to have a look at also?

Edit: for future reference, it's better to post images (not videos) directly into the forum; we can't do anything with the screencast image.

me_again wrote on 2/10/2024, 12:57 AM

@Rickvv

Looking at your picture would I be right in thinking that you've "cleaned up" the whites by using the White Balance check mark under Effects/Colour? All that blue on the whites is a classic sign to me of it's use, and it no doubt exaggerated the purple "halo" (a spotlight from the side?). I've found it's sometimes better to use Colour Temperature or Saturation or Hue or a combination of all.

This may not help you but do you have any NewBlue effects? I have one called Selective Hue (from a previous version of MS/MEP) which cleans up the purple quite well on your still. As @AAProds said, a short clip will help us enormously.

AndyW

emmrecs wrote on 2/10/2024, 5:05 AM

@Rickvv

I notice you have used Sharpening on this footage, as you say. In my reply to your previous thread I commented that it is possible to overuse the effect. I wonder if the purple halo you see is a manifestation of that?

If you can do as @AAProds (Al) asked, and post a short snippet of the original footage (i.e., before any processing, sharpening etc. is applied) to a file-sharing site, users who visit here can download it and "see what they can do with it" and hence offer more tailored guidance to you.

Jeff
Forum Moderator .

Rickvv wrote on 2/10/2024, 8:08 AM

OK! I see what you mean. 😕
Here's a google Drive share with about 10 minutes out of 50. This is a cut out of the original vid that I got on Wednesday. No idea what generation of the VHS our source was using, but I'm pretty sure I can't get that. Remember, this is vintage 1981 High School auditorium, and even the band director from that time doesn't remember who did the original taping (but it was probably a "better-than-home-VHS" recorder). https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17316FfpGKhvS3RbWBJ23a5W0KQqyhOLE?usp=sharing

We have various lighting going on, but this glowing shirt appears on two kids, around 7:04, and 8:22. And there's an ambient blue light on the backdrop onstage from time-to-time, that I may want to tone down.

I don't know all the terminology, and learning this Magix app (with Neat plugin) as quickly as I can.

Thanks for your help!
rickvv

CubeAce wrote on 2/10/2024, 12:58 PM

@Rickvv

Hi Rick.

If you used Bandicut to take out a piece of footage did you use the High Speed Mode that doesn't re-encode the file? I ask because the file seems to be variable frame rate from 11.583 fps to 30.045fps around its target frame rate of 29.970 which means it has been re-encoded with some quality loss.

If not then I doubt this is the original digitised file either. I'm asking because any type of processing I'm trying is missing frames and causing flashes.

Ray.

Rickvv wrote on 2/10/2024, 1:13 PM

Thanks Ray, I didn’t even look at that. Second time using bandicut :/

I’ll redo it tonight. Ugh.

AAProds wrote on 2/10/2024, 8:53 PM

@Rickvv

Here's an indication of what can be done, but not with Magix as far as I know. I've used Virtual Dub to move the reds 10 pixels to the left. Unfortunately, the red badge moved as well. 😂.

It's probably possible to mask the badge area so it isn't affected by the move but I don't know how to do that.

The best way to do snippets is to use AVIDemux (that's my website). This will smart-render/lossless copy the section you set so we'll be getting an exact copy of the original. Use the "Make a snippet of your video" procedure and post on Google Drive for us.

Neat Video is a great piece of software and works very well with Magix. The trick is to find a patch of "clear" video for your green box so that Neat can work out the best noise profile.

CubeAce wrote on 2/10/2024, 10:51 PM

@AAProds

Hi Al.

How was it with the problematic parts? The Keyboard player and the Saxophonist? It was about getting the detail back into the white shirts at those points.

Ray.

AAProds wrote on 2/10/2024, 11:03 PM

@Rickvv

Ray, I'm working on the Screencast image: the pink edging.

Are there any suggestions to reduce these bright edges?

You can bring out the dark shirts (I assume you're talking about the chaps at the back) by increasing the "Lows" Gamma in Brightness/Contrast.

CubeAce wrote on 2/10/2024, 11:32 PM

@AAProds

Hi Al.

I'm pretty sure Rick was talking about the blue edging around the white shirts under the lighting as shown in his example image.

It's what tends to happen if you can't get the in camera exposure to compensate under stage lighting. It can be very bright and bleach everything and with the lack of dynamic range those old cameras had it would have been difficult to get any shadow detail and expect the highlights not to blow out. The other concern was the lack of detail in the shirts. In the past I found with still shots at least that if you try too hard all you get is parts of the Bayer filter pattern showing up.

Ray.

Rickvv wrote on 2/11/2024, 8:27 AM

@CubeAce I did another cut with BandiCut, cut2 NTW Jazz Concert 1981, and it was HighSpeed (and was high speed the first time, too). It came out of the only original MP4 I have, which came from an unknown generation of VHS.

@AAProds I'll look at your site to do the snip (thanks), and upload something later. But right now, BandiCut was the only snipper I knew about. And yes, the white shirt alias/glow in my red circled area was one area that I was looking at (might have been from over-use of Magix "Sharpen"). And I'll look at the "Lows" gamma, to bring out the kids at the back.

Thank y'all so much for this help!

AAProds wrote on 2/11/2024, 8:39 AM

@Rickvv

Rick, you can disregard using AVIDemux; I've just had a look at the Bandicut website and it looks like "High Speed' mode gives a lossless snip; but as has already been pointed out, your snips are (still) variable frame rate, not that that is a major issue.

Could you do a quick analysis of your original MP4 in Mediainfo and copy and paste the "View>text" view here.

VHS is known for colour bleed, most often red, which I think is what you are seeing on the arm.

Rickvv wrote on 2/11/2024, 8:41 AM

@AAProds And I used your snipper to put another snippet of my problem area (white shirts on sax player) up into that google drive folder. Thank you/.

Rickvv wrote on 2/11/2024, 8:45 AM

@AAProds Wow. I never thought we'd be getting into these weeds :) Here 'tis(pretty sure I never went near this original with HandBrake):

General
Complete name : C:\Users\Rick\Downloads\NTW Jazz Concert 1981.mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42 (mp42/iso2/avc1/mp41)
File size : 643 MiB
Duration : 53 min 51 s
Overall bit rate : 1 669 kb/s
Frame rate : 29.970 FPS
Encoded date : 2024-02-04 23:38:18 UTC
Tagged date : 2024-02-04 23:38:18 UTC
Writing application : HandBrake 1.5.1 2022011000

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L3
Format settings : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 4 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 53 min 51 s
Bit rate : 1 316 kb/s
Width : 632 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.145
Stream size : 507 MiB (79%)
Writing library : x264 core 164 r3065 ae03d92
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=2 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=6 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=12 / lookahead_threads=2 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=1 / keyint=300 / keyint_min=30 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=30 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=22.3 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : 2024-02-04 23:38:18 UTC
Tagged date : 2024-02-04 23:38:18 UTC
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.601 NTSC
Transfer characteristics : BT.601
Matrix coefficients : BT.601
Codec configuration box : avcC

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC LC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID : mp4a-40-2
Duration : 53 min 51 s
Source duration : 53 min 51 s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 344 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel layout : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 132 MiB (21%)
Source stream size : 132 MiB (21%)
Title : AAC (1.0) 448 kbps / AAC (1.0) 448 kbps
Default : Yes
Alternate group : 1
Encoded date : 2024-02-04 23:38:18 UTC
Tagged date : 2024-02-04 23:38:18 UTC
mdhd_Duration : 3231552

AAProds wrote on 2/11/2024, 8:57 AM

@Rickvv

Thanks for the mediainfo, that tells a story. The second Bandicut file has this framerate:

Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 29.970 (29970/1000) FPS
Minimum frame rate : 10.713 FPS
Maximum frame rate : 30.045 FPS
Original frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS

But the original MP4 has this:

Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS

So the Bandiboys are telling porkies about "lossless" cutting. If it was a truly lossless "snip, those framerates would be the same.

As I say though, in terms of your problem, your Bandi snips will do. The colour experts can work on your sleeves.

me_again wrote on 2/11/2024, 9:32 AM

@Rickvv

It would also be useful to know what, apart from Neat Video, effects you have installed with Movie Studio e.g, NewBlue Filters, Stylizers etc.

I would hate for someone to find a way to remove the glow only for you to find you need to spend £($)300+ to do it.

AndyW

johnebaker wrote on 2/11/2024, 2:54 PM

@Rickvv

Hi

Testing the video clip, the best built-in option I can find for getting rid of the blue tinge and gives better colour rendition is to apply the movie look 'Warm' found in Templates, Movie looks, Film Looks Basic.

IMHO the fringing and colour bleed you are getting is not going to be easy to remove with what is available in Movie Studio.

HTH

John EB
Forum Moderator

Rickvv wrote on 2/12/2024, 6:31 AM

@me_again I've only installed the Neat Video (home) plugin. I hope I don't need other tools, this is not a long-term "gig" for me...I just have three or four vids for this High School Reunion site to cleanup, and "our" budget is fairly limited (ie: none :)

@johnebaker I'll take a look at your suggestion with the "Warm", and I'll keep my sharpening down to a reasonable level. I realize that I may not be able to get everything perfect, and it's OK to leave it looking like a 40-year old vid...I'm just trying to get most of the warts removed.

Thanks for your help on this! (I'm learning a lot as we go).

AAProds wrote on 2/12/2024, 7:30 AM

@Rickvv

What is the size of the original MP4 file? If it's that 643MB file above (you did the Mediainfo report for), could you host the complete file on Google Drive. I'll then take pieces of it over to VH and see what can be done. It has to be the original though with no effects added.

Rickvv wrote on 2/12/2024, 8:04 AM

@AAProds, The original is 658 MB, and not sure why that mediaInfo says 634. But here it is. https://drive.google.com/file/d/14TOabuPl5zgX9F4y-PdzFC2ziJucLFSX/view?usp=drive_link

Maybe I did something to that file I thought was the original...but this one is a fresh DL from the band director's WeTransfer.

And a MediaInfo on this "fresh DL".

General
Complete name : C:\Users\Rick\Downloads\NTW Jazz Concert 1981-fresh DL.mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42 (mp42/iso2/avc1/mp41)
File size : 643 MiB
Duration : 53 min 51 s
Overall bit rate : 1 669 kb/s
Frame rate : 29.970 FPS
Encoded date : 2024-02-04 23:38:18 UTC
Tagged date : 2024-02-04 23:38:18 UTC
Writing application : HandBrake 1.5.1 2022011000

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L3
Format settings : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 4 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 53 min 51 s
Bit rate : 1 316 kb/s
Width : 632 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.145
Stream size : 507 MiB (79%)
Writing library : x264 core 164 r3065 ae03d92
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=2 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=6 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=12 / lookahead_threads=2 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=1 / keyint=300 / keyint_min=30 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=30 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=22.3 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : 2024-02-04 23:38:18 UTC
Tagged date : 2024-02-04 23:38:18 UTC
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.601 NTSC
Transfer characteristics : BT.601
Matrix coefficients : BT.601
Codec configuration box : avcC

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC LC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID : mp4a-40-2
Duration : 53 min 51 s
Source duration : 53 min 51 s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 344 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel layout : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 132 MiB (21%)
Source stream size : 132 MiB (21%)
Title : AAC (1.0) 448 kbps / AAC (1.0) 448 kbps
Default : Yes
Alternate group : 1
Encoded date : 2024-02-04 23:38:18 UTC
Tagged date : 2024-02-04 23:38:18 UTC
mdhd_Duration : 3231552

AAProds wrote on 2/12/2024, 8:47 AM

Got it @Rickvv.