Gripes, Annoyances - Old VST isn't supported without premium features.

nuFF3 wrote on 8/14/2020, 7:52 AM

I used to have an old copy of Music Maker, and I used all sorts of VSTs from 8bit synths to xylophone synths etc.

I decided it was high time to upgrade to newer programs, as the old one seems to crash fairly often, and was fairly slow and clunky.

But to my dismay, when I bought the new MMM21, I was greeted with a slew of problems.

First I had to reimport all the old synths, my custom Revolta2 instruments, and try to get BeatBox2 to work.

Then I was greeted with another stupid problem, ALL MY VSTs ARE 32BIT AND REQUIRE THE DAMNED BRIDGE TO EVEN WORK.

What is this nonsense? Why have you done this?!

I get that you need to redesign the core, but gate legacy support behind a paywall is just scummy.

And BeatBox2 or object instruments arent a thing anymore I guess... more annoyances, great.

Nor is project wide tempo pitch/resampling.

 

At least my Revolta2 instruments work.

Comments

SP. wrote on 8/14/2020, 8:03 AM

The bridge is a new feature that wasn't available in earlier versions. Only in Music Studio and Samplitude.

Aren't there 64 bit versions of your VSTs? You could also try jBridge which can wrap 32 bit VSTs. Maybe it's a cheaper alternative.

It's also a good idea to keep an old PC for all your legacy software. Or try a virtual machine. I still have Windows XP and Windows 98 machines for abandoned old software that doesn't run anymore on modern Windows versions. Virtual machines don't work in my case, because I need graphic acceleration.

johnebaker wrote on 8/14/2020, 8:56 AM

@nuFF3

Hi and welcome to the forum

. . . . I bought the new MMM21 . . .

Which variant - Plus or Premium?

If the Plus version you can purchase the VST bridge from the Store within the program.

@SP. there is no need for jBridge any more.

If you bought the Premium version and activated with the serial number you will have received, did you install all the Extra content available, which contains the VST Bridge, under the Downloads tab next to the store?

Also ensure you have the latest patch installed.

MMM 2021 has some bugs check this bug list you may be affected by them.

John EB
Forum Moderator

 

 

 

VPX 15, Movie Studio 2024, 2023, and earlier versions 2015 and 2016, Music Maker Premium 2024.

PC - running Windows 11 23H2 Professional 64bit on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16GB RAM, RTX 2060 6GB 192-bit GDDR6, 1 x 1Tb Sabrent NVME SSD (OS and programs), 2 x 4TB HDD (Data) internal HDD + 1TB internal SSD (Work disc), + 6 ext backup HDDs.

Laptop - Lenovo Legion 5i Phantom - running Windows 11 23H2 on Intel Core i7-10750H, 16GB DDR4-SDRAM, 512GB SSD, 43.9 cm screen Full HD 1920 x 1080, Intel UHD 630 iGPU and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 (6GB GDDR6)

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nuFF3 wrote on 8/14/2020, 9:14 AM

@nuFF3

Hi and welcome to the forum

. . . . I bought the new MMM21 . . .

Which variant - Plus or Premium?

If the Plus version you can purchase the VST bridge from the Store within the program.

@SP. there is no need for jBridge any more.

If you bought the Premium version and activated with the serial number you will have received, did you install all the Extra content available, which contains the VST Bridge, under the Downloads tab next to the store?

Also ensure you have the latest patch installed.

MMM 2021 has some bugs check this bug list you may be affected by them.

John EB
Forum Moderator

 

 

 

I only bought the Plus variant since I thought I didn't need all the extra stuff, little did I know I HAVE to shell out for something that never was a problem back in the 32bit days.

It's just really annoying that I have to buy something extra to be able to have the NEW program function at the same level as an old one.

Why are we regressing in terms of features and capabilities?

Oh but it's 64bit and multicore finally! But we lose legacy capability unless we buy the premium version or shell out for extras.

Frustrating to say the least.

Anyway, I'll be able to find a good sampler to replace BeatBox2, and I see if there's some good 64bit synths out there.

I won't be using MMM21 for the foreseeable future until I get it working like it should that's for sure.

browj2 wrote on 8/14/2020, 10:47 AM

@nuFF3

Depending on how old your old version was, you may be able to activate it to get more, like instruments that came with earlier versions, in MMM2021. Did you try activating with your old activation code?

For BeatBox, you can try .

John CB

John C.B.

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nuFF3 wrote on 8/14/2020, 11:48 AM

@nuFF3

Depending on how old your old version was, you may be able to activate it to get more, like instruments that came with earlier versions, in MMM2021. Did you try activating with your old activation code?

For BeatBox, you can try .

John CB

MX was 2011 right... Yeah, I don't think that'll work.

The only instrument/vst I want from that is BeatBox2, but object synths have been discontinued IIRC.

I've experienced a bunch of audio issues in the new version as well. The Magix Lowlatency ASIO driver isn't working correctly. Sometimes it cut's the key short, and might not even play some samples.

It doesn't reproduce accurate audio compared to DirectSound nor the Wave Driver.

But DirectSound and the Wave Driver doesn't produce any audio at all unless I press the play button.

UUuugh!!!

Why can't it just work like normal.

 

The WASAPI doesn't play the right key even, so forget that one.

SP. wrote on 8/14/2020, 2:18 PM

MX was the oldest version that still could be activated in MM2020. I didn't test it with 2021 but you should give it a try.

Did you try to drag and drop the object synthesizer syn-files from MX into a MM2021 track to make them work?

Some users here in the forum recommended to try other ASIO drivers, for example the Fruity Loops ASIO driver that comes with the free demo of Fruity Loops.

johnebaker wrote on 8/14/2020, 3:13 PM

@nuFF3

Hi

. . . . I've experienced a bunch of audio issues in the new version as well. . . .

Crackling and popping on preview?

Try setting the audio buffers to these values - I found these work well:

Another user has also suggested increasing the number of buffers - I have not had to do this.

. . . . It doesn't reproduce accurate audio compared to DirectSound nor the Wave Driver . . . .

In what way is it not accurate?

 

@SP.

. . . . Did you try to drag and drop the object synthesizer syn-files from MX into a MM2021 track to make them work? . . . .

Does this work for you? It did not for me.

. . . . MX was the oldest version that still could be activated in MM2020 . . .

If it does work with MMM2021, it will still not enable the use of the 32 bit VST's - the VST Bridge is new and is only activated in MMM 2021 Premium by MMM 2021 own serial number. I tried the MMM 2020 premium serial no. and this did not activate the new features including the VST Bridge.

In the case of the free version or Plus the VST Bridge must be purchased in order to use 32 bit VSTs

. . . . The only instrument/vst I want from that is BeatBox2 . . . .

Beatbox 2 was removed with the 2017 edition - see this topic.

 

John EB

 

Last changed by johnebaker on 8/14/2020, 3:14 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

VPX 15, Movie Studio 2024, 2023, and earlier versions 2015 and 2016, Music Maker Premium 2024.

PC - running Windows 11 23H2 Professional 64bit on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16GB RAM, RTX 2060 6GB 192-bit GDDR6, 1 x 1Tb Sabrent NVME SSD (OS and programs), 2 x 4TB HDD (Data) internal HDD + 1TB internal SSD (Work disc), + 6 ext backup HDDs.

Laptop - Lenovo Legion 5i Phantom - running Windows 11 23H2 on Intel Core i7-10750H, 16GB DDR4-SDRAM, 512GB SSD, 43.9 cm screen Full HD 1920 x 1080, Intel UHD 630 iGPU and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 (6GB GDDR6)

Sony FDR-AX53e Video camera, DJI Osmo Action 3 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

nuFF3 wrote on 8/14/2020, 4:22 PM

@johnebaker

I'll try out the audio buffer stuff, but since the issues aren't present in playback with DirectSound or Wave Driver, I'd chalk it up to the ASIO drivers not performing like they should.

...In what way is it not accurate?...

Like I stated; it sometimes cuts playback of some midi keys short, and it might not even play some samples or might cut them short as well.

It's a bit hard to explain.

I've tried different ASIO drivers too, I'm currently using ASIO4ALL v2 and it seems to be more stable, but it too has some playback issues.

What I'd want is for DirectSound to work like it used to, where using the keyboard in the UI or creating notes in a midi object.

So many weird bugs and annoyances that really shouldn't be in a newer version. Like I said, we've regressed in terms of features and capabilities.

nuFF3 wrote on 8/15/2020, 6:59 AM

I've tried the Audio Buffer stuff, upping the Multitrack size and the Preview size.

It didn't help at all with the audio issues I'm facing, nor did it fix the regular annoying crashes/freezes that occur when I'm stopping the playback after a few minutes of work.

SP. wrote on 8/15/2020, 9:10 AM

Do you use a Realtek sound device that's on your mainboard? Maybe try updating the drivers for it and try modifying the settings in the Realtek Audio Manager. For example deactivate all effects.

Or try changing the Windows 10 Power options so that Windows is not in power saving mode.

You can also test your system with https://www.resplendence.com/latencymon

nuFF3 wrote on 8/15/2020, 11:07 AM

Can someone actually confirm for me that DirectSound works at all for them outside of playback?

Are the ASIO drivers producing correct sounds when using a sampler for you?

With ASIO drivers: If you set the Loop Range to 4 bars, and have a midi object with 4 long notes (say 1 bar each) in sequence. Does the last note sometimes cut short?

Does it freeze/hang at random points when trying to stop playback with (or without) the instrument editor open?

 

These are some of the issues I've notice with MMM21 that are not present in MX.

MX did have the occasional crash, but it was not as frequent as MMM21.

SP. wrote on 8/15/2020, 12:32 PM

Do you use an external USB audio interface? Maybe it works much better with something like that.

The ASIO drivers like ASIO4All or Magix Low Latency are not real ASIO drivers. They still use the underlying Windows audio system. Try checking your system with Latencymon.

nuFF3 wrote on 8/15/2020, 1:11 PM

I'm using the built-in Realtek device that comes with my motherboard.

If you actually read what I wrote: "These are some of the issues I've notice with MMM21 that are not present in MX."

Meaning MX did not have those problems.

And how will "checking my system" improve anything?! It works fine with MX, but not with MMM21 even using the same settings.

Can anyone even confirm to me that everything is working fine on their end at least?

  • Does DirectSound work for you outside of playback?
  • Does the ASIO drivers (Magix, Realtek or whatever) work for you without any problems?
  • Are you experiencing freezes/hangs at random points when trying to stop the playback?

I'm starting to really hate this program at this point. None of the issues makes any sense.

SP. wrote on 8/15/2020, 1:19 PM

The new MM2021 has a 64 bit sound engine. Maybe your Realtek Audio device cannot keep up

nuFF3 wrote on 8/15/2020, 1:53 PM

The new MM2021 has a 64 bit sound engine. Maybe your Realtek Audio device cannot keep up


DirectSound and Wave Driver work fine during playback, but there's no audio otherwise.

ASIO drivers have strange oddeties that do not make sense. Sometimes cutting key playback short, sometimes not. Not playing samples from a sampler correctly, etc.

And the WASAPI drivers are sometimes not even playing the right key... No wait, now it is playing everything correctly, but for how long will that work I wonder.

Changing the drivers crashed the program more often than not. Stopping playback using the Stop button crashes the program more often than not. Just hitting play might even crash the program for goodness sake.

 

So much for this garbage "64bit" sound engine, multi-core support, and every other buzzword they could put on their website. Your old synths are gated behind a paywall, driver support is all messed up, and it crashes more often than I can count.

Why "fix" something that doesn't need fixing? Or in this case: Why break something that was working?

 

I suppose it will eventually be fixed, but we're not there yet, not by a long shot.

johnebaker wrote on 8/15/2020, 2:00 PM

@nuFF3

Hi

  1. . . . . Does DirectSound work for you outside of playback? . . . .

    Yes for live sound recording only with limitations - you cannot adjust the levels or monitor them - this warning appears


     
  2. . . . . . Does the ASIO drivers (Magix, Realtek or whatever) work for you without any problems . . . . .

    Yes including live recording - the image I posted in my previous post and the one below show the settings I use - I too have the Realtek HDA audio chipset - check your advanced settings are the same as mine below


     
  3. . . . . Are you experiencing freezes/hangs at random points when trying to stop the playback? . . . .

    None.

@SP. . . . . Magix Low Latency are not real ASIO drivers . . . They still use the underlying Windows audio system . . . .

Incorrect - ASIO4All, Direct Sound and Wave drivers use the underlying Windows audio system, this introduces higher latency in the audio as there are more layers of communication between the program and the audio device.

The Magix ASIO drivers bypass the normal audio path and communicate directly with the audio chip - that is the reason why no other programs can use the audio card when Music Maker is open.

John EB

Last changed by johnebaker on 8/15/2020, 2:02 PM, changed a total of 3 times.

VPX 15, Movie Studio 2024, 2023, and earlier versions 2015 and 2016, Music Maker Premium 2024.

PC - running Windows 11 23H2 Professional 64bit on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16GB RAM, RTX 2060 6GB 192-bit GDDR6, 1 x 1Tb Sabrent NVME SSD (OS and programs), 2 x 4TB HDD (Data) internal HDD + 1TB internal SSD (Work disc), + 6 ext backup HDDs.

Laptop - Lenovo Legion 5i Phantom - running Windows 11 23H2 on Intel Core i7-10750H, 16GB DDR4-SDRAM, 512GB SSD, 43.9 cm screen Full HD 1920 x 1080, Intel UHD 630 iGPU and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 (6GB GDDR6)

Sony FDR-AX53e Video camera, DJI Osmo Action 3 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

nuFF3 wrote on 8/15/2020, 2:26 PM

@johnebaker

I'm using the same setting as you, yet I'm experiencing issues with sample playback using a sampler, usually with shorter samples like kicks. And the afformentioned cutting keys short for some reason (always at the same spot).

And it crashes VERY often.

Hitting the stop button during playback has a 50% chance of freezing/hanging the software on my end. Or just hitting play might crash the program.

SP. wrote on 8/15/2020, 5:36 PM

Latencymon maybe tells you, what causes these problems.

SP. wrote on 8/15/2020, 5:38 PM

The Magix ASIO drivers bypass the normal audio path and communicate directly with the audio chip

IMHO Magix Low Lantency is just a rebranded ASIO4All

frank-ward wrote on 8/15/2020, 8:41 PM

@nuFF3

Hi

  1. . . . . Does DirectSound work for you outside of playback? . . . .

    Yes for live sound recording only with limitations - you cannot adjust the levels or monitor them - this warning appears


     
  2. . . . . . Does the ASIO drivers (Magix, Realtek or whatever) work for you without any problems . . . . .

    Yes including live recording - the image I posted in my previous post and the one below show the settings I use - I too have the Realtek HDA audio chipset - check your advanced settings are the same as mine below


     
  3. . . . . Are you experiencing freezes/hangs at random points when trying to stop the playback? . . . .

    None.

@SP. . . . . Magix Low Latency are not real ASIO drivers . . . They still use the underlying Windows audio system . . . .

Incorrect - ASIO4All, Direct Sound and Wave drivers use the underlying Windows audio system, this introduces higher latency in the audio as there are more layers of communication between the program and the audio device.

The Magix ASIO drivers bypass the normal audio path and communicate directly with the audio chip - that is the reason why no other programs can use the audio card when Music Maker is open.

John EB

 

frank-ward wrote on 8/15/2020, 8:42 PM

"The Magix ASIO drivers bypass the normal audio path and communicate directly with the audio chip - that is the reason why no other programs can use the audio card when Music Maker is open.

John EB"

This is the most annoying part of the program to me.

emmrecs wrote on 8/16/2020, 3:59 AM

@frank-ward

The ASIO specification, as set out by Steinberg, its creator, allows only ONE audio source to be used at a time. Thus, the "problem" is nothing whatsoever to do with MM or Magix.

Jeff
Forum Moderator

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johnebaker wrote on 8/16/2020, 4:17 AM

@SP.Hi

. . . . IMHO Magix Low Lantency is just a rebranded ASIO4All . . . .

If that was the case then other programs would be able to access the sound card as the same time Music Maker is running.

ASIO was a driver model specified by Steinberg to access audio cards that have support it directly, so as to reduce latency.

ASIO4All enables programs to use ASIO for audio cards, that did not have integrated ASIO support, via WDM.

Most modern audio cards and chipsets have integrated ASIO support.

ASIO4All is very popular because it allows other programs to access the sound card at the same time as the program connecting via ASIO.

@frank-ward

Hi

. . . . This is the most annoying part of the program to me. . . . .

That is from your viewpoint.

From the viewpoint of many music creators, hobbyist through to professional, latency is a much bigger issue.

It is difficult trying to maintain beat when live recording or playing a MIDI instrument with an external keyboard, when the sound you hear has a noticeable lag.

If you never record MIDI, or live record, then try switching to the DirectSound driver.

HTH

John EB

 

 

VPX 15, Movie Studio 2024, 2023, and earlier versions 2015 and 2016, Music Maker Premium 2024.

PC - running Windows 11 23H2 Professional 64bit on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16GB RAM, RTX 2060 6GB 192-bit GDDR6, 1 x 1Tb Sabrent NVME SSD (OS and programs), 2 x 4TB HDD (Data) internal HDD + 1TB internal SSD (Work disc), + 6 ext backup HDDs.

Laptop - Lenovo Legion 5i Phantom - running Windows 11 23H2 on Intel Core i7-10750H, 16GB DDR4-SDRAM, 512GB SSD, 43.9 cm screen Full HD 1920 x 1080, Intel UHD 630 iGPU and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 (6GB GDDR6)

Sony FDR-AX53e Video camera, DJI Osmo Action 3 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

nuFF3 wrote on 8/16/2020, 6:09 AM
If you never record MIDI, or live record, then try switching to the DirectSound driver.

Oh that would be JUST FINE, if DirectSound wasn't completely borked as well.

Seriously, DirectSound only works when I press play. It doesn't produce sound otherwise.

And the COMPLETELY borked ASIO stuff is even messing up exports.

I exported a wave file, and the issues I have during playback with ASIO are present IN THE EXPORT. What?!

At least the WASAPI drivers work somewhat, but I need to reset it's target each launch, and since the program has a tendency to crash; I'd be doing that more than I'd want to.

 

How the f**k did any of this get past QA?! Did it even have QA?

Seriously, with all these issues, I cannot use this program for work. I'm forced to use older software because the newer ones are completely and utterly borked.