@mike-agiannidis

Hi

We need more information:

1. Computer specification, Windows version and program full name and version number - see this topic for specific details required.
    
2. A MediaInfo analysis of the source video - post the results from the Text view - the basic properties you have posted are not detailed enough.
    
3. Are you using Proxy files look in the Project settings (E key) to see if the option is turned on.
    
4. Is the lightning symbol, bottom right of the Program monitor, blue

John EB
Forum Moderator

 

1. Please see attached PC specs. I JUST purchased video prox (18.0.1.89 (UDP3))

2. Please see attached of MediaInfo details of file

3. Proxy is on...should I set to the HD setting or a custom setting?

4. Lightning symbol was not blue. It is now blue and I have unselected all options.

SORRY. I am totally new to the software.

@mike-agiannidis

Thanks for the additional information, but can you go back to the MediaInfo data and show us the results of the Text view, as @johnebaker asked. On that MediaInfo screen click on "View" and then from the dropdown choose "Text". That contains a lot more information than the opening MI screen gives.

Jeff
Forum Moderator

@mike-agiannidis

Hi

. . . . Lightning symbol was not blue. It is now blue and I have unselected all options. . . . .

The purpose of the options under the Lightning symbol is to reduce the resolution and frame rate of the Preview monitor, leave the Reduce resolution and Frame rate options on - this reduces the load on the processor and GPU. Deactivate effects should be off - otherwise you will not see effects when you apply them..

Looking at the basic MediaInfo data the frame rate is 120 fps - is the a screen recording or from a camera?

As @emmrecs has commented we need the information from the Text view - you can copy and paste this directly in to a comment - no need for an image.

John EB

@mike-agiannidis

Thanks for the additional information, but can you go back to the MediaInfo data and show us the results of the Text view, as @johnebaker asked. On that MediaInfo screen click on "View" and then from the dropdown choose "Text". That contains a lot more information than the opening MI screen gives.

Jeff
Forum Moderator

Complete name                            : C:\Users\mike_\Desktop\Fulshear\C0020.MP4
Format                                   : XAVC
Codec ID                                 : XAVC (XAVC/mp42/iso2)
File size                                : 17.0 GiB
Duration                                 : 41 min 10 s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 58.9 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2020-12-12 02:28:17
Tagged date                              : UTC 2020-12-12 02:28:17

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High@L5.1
Format settings                          : CABAC / 2 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames        : 2 frames
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 41 min 10 s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 56.1 Mb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 60.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 119.880 (120000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.226
Stream size                              : 16.2 GiB (96%)
Encoded date                             : UTC 2020-12-12 02:28:17
Tagged date                              : UTC 2020-12-12 02:28:17
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : xvYCC
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709
Codec configuration box                  : avcC

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Big / Signed
Codec ID                                 : twos
Duration                                 : 41 min 10 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 452 MiB (3%)
Encoded date                             : UTC 2020-12-12 02:28:17
Tagged date                              : UTC 2020-12-12 02:28:17

Other #1
ID                                       : 3
Type                                     : Time code
Format                                   : QuickTime TC
Duration                                 : 41 min 10 s
Frame rate                               : 119.880 (120000/1001) FPS
Time code of first frame                 : 01:23:08;:8
Time code, striped                       : Yes
Encoded date                             : UTC 2020-12-12 02:28:17
Tagged date                              : UTC 2020-12-12 02:28:17

Other #2
Type                                     : meta
Duration                                 : 41 min 10 s
 

@mike-agiannidis

Hi

. . . . Lightning symbol was not blue. It is now blue and I have unselected all options. . . . .

The purpose of the options under the Lightning symbol is to reduce the resolution and frame rate of the Preview monitor, leave the Reduce resolution and Frame rate options on - this reduces the load on the processor and GPU. Deactivate effects should be off - otherwise you will not see effects when you apply them..

Looking at the basic MediaInfo data the frame rate is 120 fps - is the a screen recording or from a camera?

As @emmrecs has commented we need the information from the Text view - you can copy and paste this directly in to a comment - no need for an image.

John EB

 

This is from the camera itself. recording in a avchd xs "format" since the panning in 4k isn't the best.

Just increase the bitrate for export. For a 1920x1080 export, I'd try 10,000 kbps "average", 15,000kbps "Max". If it still looks scratchy, keep increasing the bitrate.

Waiting for incoming from the mega-bitraters! 😉😂

@mike-agiannidis @johnebaker @emmrecs @AAProds

Hi Mike.

Why have you chosen to show the information of a clip shot in slow motion?

For nighttime shooting through tinted glass that is going to push the iso figures up quite a bit as the frame exposure speed will be shortened. This is not going to give you the best quality footage to start with. You say you are newbies. How are you shooting the footage and what sports please? Please also don't tell me you are using the digital zoom function. I would love to see a short clip to examine. First to check how the camera is coping with the shooting conditions and how much noise is present in the footage as well as how stable the footage is to begin with.

Ray.

@mike-agiannidis

As @johnebaker commented earlier, the frame rate of your source video is "fast" (120 fps), almost into the realms of "slow-mo" footage, where the fast recording rate is played back at normal speed to create the effect of slow motion. That would tie in with your original post where you say the footage is "slowed".

Is that speed the default setting for your camera? A very quick Google search on your camera led me to this statement: up to 120p slow motion. I have deliberately highlighted the key words here.

I think you need first to "convert" your footage to "normal" speed. I'm not sure how you can achieve this, unfortunately.

Jeff

@mike-agiannidis @emmrecs

Hi Mike

I assume you are shooting at 120fps so that you can slow down the action of the athlete

The procedure with footage shot at 100fps with my Sony FDR-AX53 is to import it to the timeline then go to the speed effect where it will be displaying as 100fps in the fps window. Click the dropdown beside this and it gives you a choice say 25 ("like Movie" - if your project is set to 25fps) and if you select this the clip will extend by 4x in the timeline and play at 1/4x speed.You can confirm each of the 100 frames is present by stepping through each frame with the Right Arrow where you should see each frame move slightly. This should look smooth when exported and viewed at the frame rate of your project. You can slow this further to 12.5fps after uncoupling the audio but it will double each frame to do it with a possible slight loss of smoothness.

If your export looks pixelated it could be because you are not exporting at a high enough bitrate. Try to match an export template as close as possible to the parameters of your original clip as reported by the media info in your post as a rule. But bear in mind that the bitrate of the recorded file may be as high as it is (60Mbps) because the camera was recording at 120 images per second and after slowing the footage down in VPX and exporting to 30fps you could get away with a much lower bitrate ie 28Mbps and still retain the same quality.

Peter

SO...basically need to take the fps down. No, was not using digital zoom. Filming soccer games at night under lights with darker end zone areas.

Will try again with new film settings.

@mike-agiannidis

Hi Mike.

Glad to hear you not using digital zoom as that reduces resolution.

Shooting at that frame speed is going to mean the camera has less exposure time between frames which will push the ISO settings up and introducing more digital noise into the recording. The slower the frame rate, the better the footage should look from a noise perspective.

But.

Slowing the frame rate can produce less smooth panning shots when hand held and would suggest the use of a good tripod with a good quality fluid video head to try to reduce that if needed. Experiment with different frame speeds to see which gives the best balance of performance for your setup.

However, If Peter is correct and you can't keep the bit rate the same for the lower frame rates, any advantage gained from the lower ISO used may be negated by the lower bit rate of the recording and subsequent compression of the file in camera. Fingers crossed this is not the case. Often bit rates do decrease using lower frame rates but not proportionally to the drop of fps.

[Edit] If the footage then looks smooth but a bit noisy (film grain looking) then the best third party noise reduction plug-in to use is Neatvideo. It is quite hard on any computer using it and can reduce the export times quite a bit but the results could be worth it.

Ray.

@mike-agiannidis

Hi Mike.

Glad to hear you not using digital zoom as that reduces resolution.

Shooting at that frame speed is going to mean the camera has less exposure time between frames which will push the ISO settings up and introducing more digital noise into the recording. The slower the frame rate, the better the footage should look from a noise perspective.

But.

Slowing the frame rate can produce less smooth panning shots when hand held and would suggest the use of a good tripod with a good quality fluid video head to try to reduce that if needed. Experiment with different frame speeds to see which gives the best balance of performance for your setup.

However, If Peter is correct and you can't keep the bit rate the same for the lower frame rates, any advantage gained from the lower ISO used may be negated by the lower bit rate of the recording and subsequent compression of the file in camera. Fingers crossed this is not the case. Often bit rates do decrease using lower frame rates but not proportionally to the drop of fps.

Ray.

Thank you so much for the info and no patience! Yes, we have a pretty nice fluid head tripod.

To cut to the chase, what do you suggest for settings knowing the shooting conditions (night time and slow/continual panning). In regards to panning, we are not on ground level and there isn’t fast panning but there is movement from side to side.

@mike-agiannidis@mike-agiannidis @johnebaker @AAProds@AAProds

Hi Mike.

There are so many variables to consider it is difficult to give precise information.

On the plus side you have a camcorder with a decent sized sensor. Always a bonus.

I can't find any information on the lens but hopefully it will be of a constant aperture so any zoom adjustment would not alter other setting inputs such as individual exposer time or ISO adjustment caused by adjusting the focal length of the zoom. Those settings could still change depending on the lighting distribution across the pitch though so I would still expect some difference in grain unless those settings can be locked off.

Then there is the lighting itself and that you have to shoot through glass. Both not ideal but you have to deal with what you are given.

The lighting is probably driven by an AC current and can cause shimmering or colour shifting problems but a lot of newer cameras can cope with this and may even have a setting in the menu to compensate. You may have to know about the lighting to either correct in camera (best solution) or in post production if needed. (It may not be).

I haven't done a lot of video work for artificially lit sports but a lot of stills work over the years and the problems are roughly the same regarding setting up.

Most of the problems I have encountered have been associated with various venues lighting. Some have mixed lighting which I found most problematic when trying to pan from one end of an area to another. In stills shooting this produces colour variation between shots but with video can cause strobing at various shutter speeds and colour problems.

The only solutions I have found have been specific to each venue. So I keep a notebook with me at all times and note settings I have used for comparison when I get back to edit. I use the most successful settings as a starter point when I next go back to that venue.

Last is the glass you have to shoot through. Shooting through glass at any time can be very problematic.

First you are shooting through one more layer of glass and worse it is not optical glass so you are losing light. Then because you are shooting into an essentially dark area, you have to be very aware of lighting in the area you are working within ,reflecting off the glass on your side and into the camera lens. Even if the offending light is not in focus, it can bleach local areas of the frame (It looks like vertical or diagonal banding) or cause unexplained halos of light. You can reduce that by keeping the lens as close to the glass as you dare and if possible reduce or eliminate any light in the area you work within. Essentially working in the dark. That may not be practical.

My stills camera has all of its main control buttons on the back panel illuminated so I can see which button does what for that specific purpose.

I'm sorry if this is not much help and I've copied the other members here into the reply in case I've forgotten to add anything of importance or they have better knowledge of your camera to give additional advice or tell you to ignore some of my advice as irrelevant to your situation or camera.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Ray, I assume you mean

It is quite hard on any computer using it and can increase the export times quite a bit but the results could be worth it.

I would also delete the word "can". 😉

@Scenestealer

Pete,

The procedure with footage shot at 100fps with my Sony FDR-AX53 is to import it to the timeline then go to the speed effect where it will be displaying as 100fps in the fps window. Click the dropdown beside this and it gives you a choice say 25 ("like Movie" - if your project is set to 25fps) and if you select this the clip will extend by 4x in the timeline and play at 1/4x speed.You can confirm each of the 100 frames is present by stepping through each frame with the Right Arrow where you should see each frame move slightly. 

None of that is necessary if you want to preview/save the video in real-time speed. I simply dropped a 125FPS file onto my 25FPS timeline and MEP displayed it's original length (4sec), with 25 frames per second. MEP will export the video at realtime speed and does it quite smoothly here. If you want to play/export it in slomo, then yes, you've to set the clip speed to 25FPS (or whatever your movie is), but it seems that Mike isn't after that, he's only a video, in real time, of the game. I assume he's not after a 6 hour game video playing at 1/6 speed! 😀

@mike-agiannidis

Mike,

As I said before, crank up the export bitrate and see if the quality improves.

Cheers, Al

@mike-agiannidis

Hi

Slightly off the main topic however:

For shooting through glass, to minimise internal reflections I use a LensSkirt - it is excellent for eliminating reflections on the glass caused by internal lighting - because of the size of the hood the camera lens has to be very close to the glass, which is a good thing anyway, and may limit the range of movement you have.

Shooting into dark corners will increase the noise level - I and several other users here use NeatVideo Noise Reduction as a plug-in in VPX - the only downside of this is that when exporting the export frame rate can drop to as low as 1 - 2 fps.

Using this plug-in on a laptop based editor the loading on the CPU/GPU is high and may cause overheating issues.

John EB

@johnebaker @mike-agiannidis

Hi John.

That looks good as I have been using a flexible rubber lens hood up until now. My only concern would be in combination with using a tripod as you could not pivot the front lens element.

I do agree wholeheartedly your concern with heat problems editing on a laptop using NeatVideo.

From my viewpoint, this task is possibly one of the most demanding of shooting and editing conditions to tackle.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

. . . . in combination with using a tripod as you could not pivot the front lens element . . .

Using a tripod can be an issue as I said you have to have the lens close to the glass, the rotational axis on a tripod is 'fixed' in terms of the arc the camera makes so the range of movement you have is limited, hand held is better and longer focal lengths preferred.

. . . . this task is possibly one of the most demanding of shooting and editing conditions to tackle . . . .

It is - a combination of the variation in light levels, shooting through glass and the overall light level are all against you.

John EB

@AAProds @mike-agiannidis

Hi Al

If you want to play/export it in slomo, then yes, you've to set the clip speed to 25FPS (or whatever your movie is), but it seems that Mike isn't after that, he's only a video, in real time, of the game. I assume he's not after a 6 hour game video playing at 1/6 speed! 😀

Well we are all assuming.......I assumed that Mike would not try to shoot at 120fps at night, using only slow pans, if he was not interested in slowing some clips down. Shooting 120fps progressive would mean less light for each frame by effectively increasing the shutter speed and force the camera to increase the gain and subsequently the noise, which in turn would be harder to compress cleanly. 60fps would be plenty for smoothing the players movements in real time playback, if that is why he chose the high speed mode, and would probably be a good compromise given the reasons Ray and I have stated .

@CubeAce

Ray

If Peter is correct and you can't keep the bit rate the same for the lower frame rates, any advantage gained from the lower ISO used may be negated by the lower bit rate of the recording and subsequent compression of the file in camera.

Just to clarify - my point was rather about the fact that the camera will (and should) record at a high bitrate when shooting higher frame rates but it is not necessary to maintain those high bitrates when exporting at 25 or 30fps as there are fewer overall Bits required per pixel per second as displayed in Media Info as: Bits/(Pixel*Frame) = 0.226. If you inserted Frame = 30 in that equation instead of 120 and used the 0.226 as a constant then you could calculate how many bits per second you would need to maintain the same relative compression quality as at 120fps. NB I am assuming here that Mike is not a novice at maths!

Mike's camera can actually be set to 100Mbps as well as 60Mbps at 120fps and 50Mbps at 50p.

Peter

@Scenestealer

Hi Peter.

My main concern with any frame rate is the exposure times of each frame under artificial lighting which can lead to strobing if not careful or problems with smooth looking footage while panning and effects may vary in strength depending on the type of floodlighting used and the local mains frequency. It gets worse if there are two types of lighting in use. I have covered sports venues that have used a mixture of Halogen and LED lighting and getting an exposure time that gives a consistent result has ended up with footage having a colour cast, often green in my experience but may vary as I have only used one make of camera for that so don't pretend to even guess at other possible outcomes or capabilities from other manufacturers.

The bit rates you quote for that Sony camera suggests they are set for 4K, Slow motion, and 1080p respectively and can not be altered within the menus. These are common data rates for 8bit recordings from enthusiast level cameras and the one inch sensor is the main advantage here with it's larger photosites on its 14.2MP 1.0-type (13.2mm x 8.8mm) stacked Exmor RS CMOS sensor, that in turn should enable lower ISO settings than a camera using a smaller sensor along with 20MPs. It should be a good balance between resolution and noise.

My hope is there is only one type of lighting to contend with. That would be my own personal paranoia and difficult to sort out. I only include it in case of an unexpected result that would need further fine tuning or post production work based on my own past experiences.

Ray.

Could we please just get the OP to do another export at a higher bitrate?

Could we please just get the OP to do another export at a higher bitrate?

We do not have a night time game for almost a full week. Will let you know the results after 1/7. Next few games are during the day.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

Yes, the type of floodlights used could create flicker problems made more noticeable at high frame rates. I imagine many venues might still use some type of discharge lamp and LED's switch rapidly with fast rise and fall which can be noticeable depending on frame rate ie. exposure time!

To some extent the higher frame rate will try to cause the exposure time to increase as much as possible on "Auto Exposure" due to the lack of light, which is more favourable to the lighting flicker and the stepping effect on pans

Mike has not said if he is in a 50Hz or 60Hz country but he should match the frame rates to the lighting source's power frequency or he is sure to see lighting variations.

The bit rates you quote for that Sony camera suggests they are set for 4K, Slow motion, and 1080p respectively and can not be altered within the menus.

No, as I said the you can choose in the menu on the higher end Sony camcorders.

Peter